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Got .kmz's?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Jake Freimanis, Oct 9, 2018.

  1. Jake Freimanis

    Jake Freimanis Ours is a quiet fear

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    I've been slowly accumulating a large number of google earth .kmz files. Sourced from 2 websites, a guidebook, and canyons I've been through. Does anyone else out there have any they'd be willing to share to add to my collection? I already have a lot of the most popular/commonly done canyons in Zion, North Wash, and Moab, as well as 1 canyon in Arizona and 2 or 3 in New Mexico. If anyone else is interested I can send you my giant .kzm file. Even though very little text is directly quoted from books or websites I don't want to post my file on a public forum like this until I get their permission (Tom if you're reading this that's you).

    If you can add to this list and are willing to send me a .kmz lemme know. Here are the canyons I already have detailed:

    Zion:
    Imlay
    Not-Imlay
    Behunin
    Pine Creek
    Orderville
    Keyhole
    Echo
    Subway
    Mystery
    Spry
    Heaps
    Moab:
    Bighorn
    Elephant Butte
    Dragonfly
    U-Turn
    Tierdrop
    Not-Tierdrop
    Medieval Chamber
    Fins N' Things
    Professor Creek
    Onion Creek
    Entrajo
    SGR
    Pleiades
    Repeater Jr.
    Winter Warmer
    MMI
    Lost and Found
    Cameltoe
    Pool Arch
    Moonflower
    Sunseed
    Granary
    North Wash:
    Sandthrax
    Shenanigans
    Leprechaun
    Blarney
    Shillelagh
    Lucky Charms
    Hogs 1-4
    Witches Cauldron
    Monkey Business
    Fooling Around
    New Mexico:
    Pajarito Gorge
    Potrillo Canyon
    Walatowa Slot
    Arizona:
    Christopher Creek Gorge
  2. Sonny Lawrence

    Sonny Lawrence

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  3. Kip Marshall

    Kip Marshall Bshwakr

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    Mine will be up for auction in the moment of my demise.
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  4. Jake Freimanis

    Jake Freimanis Ours is a quiet fear

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    Hahaha, am I breaking some unwritten rule here? Do people generally not share their kmz's or other map-related tools?
  5. Bootboy

    Bootboy Atwood Gear

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    People on this forum tend to be less liberal with beta sharing but tend to be very generous with showing folks around and inviting others on trips.

    My observation is that this tends to be a great way of creating a sense of community and sharing a common ethic and best practices as techniques evolve.

    That said, we should get out sometime.
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  6. Jake Freimanis

    Jake Freimanis Ours is a quiet fear

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    Okay, I can see the wisdom in that. I'll be at North Wash for the first time November 9-12, I'd love to meet you!
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  7. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    I am old-fashioned and curmudgeonly. My observation is that people who "want" or "need" kmz's are those who do not know how to read a map or the terrain around them and/or are incapable of following directions. What the heck do you need kmz's for? Most of these routes are beta'd to death, with multiple maps showing where to go. Luke has 35 waypoints to get you the first 100 yards from your car. Do you really need the beta in such a form that you don't have to think AT ALL? And why would you want that experience anyway?

    I was always confused when people asked for waypoints, when I had provided a detailed map. Do you not know how to create a waypoint from a detailed location on a map? You want me to do that simple task for you? NOW you want a KMZ? From the detailed map, you cannot create a kmz for yourself? Do you want me to rig all the rappels for you, carry the ropes (or, in my case, arrange for someone to carry the ropes), rig your rappel device, show you how to do the downclimbs, wipe your... chin. etc etc etc? Have you no skills?

    He exclaimed, curmudgeonlyish.

    Less so: I have always found that carefully studying the route on the map ahead of time gives me a good idea of what to expect, and I often do not have to refer to the map in the field, because I have it in my head. Then again, *I* can read a topographic map, which I understand is a lost art.

    Tom
  8. Kuenn

    Kuenn

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    ....somehow I knew that was coming. Thanks, Mr Curmudgeon.

    I've benefited from both sides of this argument, but tend to lean far more toward Tom's side. Don't short change one of the coolest and most satisfying parts of this or any adventure - finding the prize with little or no beta. I enjoy that "almost" as much as the prize itself.

    Many fond memories gazing and study topo maps as a kid. Still like to. I suppose I'm part of the extinct generation... Generation T-reX.

    And I just bet Tom can find Cassiopeia without the SkyView app too!
  9. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    as a matter of fact... I know approximately 4 Constellations, and Cassiopeia is one of them. :moses:

    T
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
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  10. hank moon

    hank moon lovely ligatures

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    You forgot :moses:

    BTW I used to listen to KMZ alla time. First time I head 'Whole Lotta Love' was there...

    @Jake Freimanis stick around for more fun. Tom often comes off like a grumpy troll, but he's really a pussycat-slash-grumpy troll. :)
  11. Canyonero

    Canyonero

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    There are enough fully beta'd canyons out there to keep the beginning to intermediate canyoneer busy for an entire career. What is constantly decreasing, however, is the opportunity for the advanced canyoneer to do an exploration.

    By the time you get done doing the 50-100 canyons that are very intensely beta'd in books and on the internet, you'll be glad there are some that are not.

    Ideal amount of info for me - rating of the canyon, longest drop, and location of the top of the canyon, and sometimes it's fun to not even have that.
  12. Jake Freimanis

    Jake Freimanis Ours is a quiet fear

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    To avoid being labelled as someone who can't read a topo map I guess I should explain myself :tongue: My desire for kmz's stems from wanting an easy way to compare different canyons to one another quickly and easily in terms of location, length, and rating without having to open and close different maps all the time. Living in New Mexico and only getting to experience the awesome slots found in Utah occasionally means that I spend a lot of time researching what few canyons I'll be able to do on the next 3 day weekend. Having kmz's makes that research much easier and faster. I can't keep all the different canyons I've read about in my head at the same time. But being able to open google earth and see all my different colored lines drawn on helps me get a general idea of the scale and location of everything without having to open up a tab on the internet and look up all the details. Once I've settled on what canyon(s) I'm gonna try and do though, I'm all for a simple laminated topo map. Doesn't need service, perfectly waterproof, can be dropped, stepped on etc.

    Being not wealthy enough to own a GPS, kmz's, waypoints, and the like are useless for me in-canyon. I like to think of myself as a relatively competent topo map reader. And your detailed topos have made it extremely easy for me to make a number of the kmz's I have. I'm familiar with the sensation you described, of being familiar enough with the area from study that I often don't need to refer to the map out in the field. kmz's for me are just an easy (and honestly kinda fun) way for me to compare a number of different canyons from my office cubicle.

    P.S. I wish there was a complementary emoji to the old shaky man. Something that would indicate bright-eyed optimism and complete cluelessness at the same time. I feel like I could have used something like that a few times so far = p
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  13. Jake Freimanis

    Jake Freimanis Ours is a quiet fear

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    Don't worry I will. I've idolized you people for too long to leave just because of a correction or two = )
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  14. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    I'm thinking part of it is this:

    I view canyoneering as a craft, and part of being a crafts-person is constantly working on improving your skills, your craft.

    One craft that is important and useful in canyoneering is navigation - which includes being able to read a map and to read terrain... figure things out. Using a satellite navigation tool tends to keep one from using this part of the craft. Yes, admittedly, the satellite navigation tool has saved my butt on more that one occasion, but, I only bring it along when I think it might be useful, and I only pull it out when my other resources are not working so well.

    Of the canyons on your long list above that I am familar with (about half), there are none that cannot be reliably found via the written description even without a map, and certainly easily with a map without the written desceription. If your navigation skills are not up for that, then you really, really need to work on your navigation skills. Put the toy down, pick up the map. Open your eyes, look around.

    Tom
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  15. Canyonero

    Canyonero

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    Use the GAIA app on your phone. Download the maps before you go (while you've got cell service) and you get a GPS, a compass and a reusable, modifiable topo map for like $30 a year.
  16. Jman

    Jman

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    Pretty interesting how you talk about “idolizing” these people yet some, in a sort of way, are kind of making fun of you for wanting a visual tool. It’s an odd pedestal that you have there...

    Anyway, you sound like the visual person that I am when it comes to mapping. Maybe you are familiar with or not with Climb-utah.com? For 3 years (!!) I mirrored every GPX point that he has listed and put them into a giant kmz file. And not just canyons. All of the hikes too. It took a lot of time... but it is something I am proud of. Shane, the owner of the website, took my master file (sorry I wont share it with anyone except him) and broke it up individually for the canyons and hikes listed. Some are behind a pay-wall and others are free.

    Not that I solely rely on KMZs, but if I am to do an canyon I haven’t done before in the Roost, for example, I pull up the KMZ and look very closely at the topography and get a great visual of the path. That’s in fact how I drew each one by hand. Zooming in, avoiding obstacles and following the paths that I have actually been one. It’s not just some arbitrary line in a drainage. Take the Undercover or MMI exit in Arches NP, for example. I followed the actual path for the exit up that steep slope. Now you have a visual of the entire adventure before you even set foot in it. As a supplemental tool it is very helpful. It is not a primary tool.

    Check out the website if you want to see those KMZs that I created.

    Completely agree with ya though, it is a great way to see to entire approach and exit. And see multiple canyons in an area for planning purposes. Especially if it’s your first time to that area, as you said you are from New Mexico, and visit Utah’s canyons.

    Ironically, as Tom conversely says, having these KMZs do not detract from the wilderness experience at all! At least in my opinion. I just don’t want to get lost on the approach or exit. Actually it’s pretty smart!

    And when you display all the canyons that have KMZs (and I have hundreds)...it can make exploration easier as in seeing what’s done or not done, etc.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
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  17. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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  18. Jake Freimanis

    Jake Freimanis Ours is a quiet fear

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    Dude! Your kmz's on climb-Utah are what first opened my eyes to how fun a tool google earth could be! Thanks for all your hard work! Several of the kmz's I have were downloaded from that site!

    Eh, it doesn't seem like a weird pedestal to me. I respect them not because they like or agree with me, but because they're masters of their craft. I admire the wealth of experience and the many accomplishments they've accumulated. It's inevitable that all the newfangled tools of the younger generation will meet resistance from the older, more established methods (valley uprising anyone?).

    I don't mind if others dislike kmz's because the stated objections don't apply to me. I have a good deal of practice reading a topo map and I have no trouble navigating the outdoors with just a map and compass. I agree with Tom and others that GPS and other electronic navigation tools should never be used as a crutch to support lack of navigational skills - and for me they don't. Google earth is just a fun and easy way for me to look at a bunch of different canyons when I get bored at work :tongue: Anytime I go out into the field I always leave the phone in the car and bring a map or written description if anything. Tom's posted report "Heaps of Fun" just goes to show that ultimately the deciding factor in outdoor safety is personal preparedness and good judgement. If those 3 managed to wind up in Heaps instead of Behunin when trying to follow something as easy as a GPS path I doubt they'd do much better with just a map and compass (but who knows).

    I personally had never thought of the appeal of navigating a canyon with little to no beta. That sounds like a personal preference to me, obsessing over google earth imagery has helped sate my lust for the Utah slots in the months between my visits. But at @Canyonero 's suggestion I'll give it a try. Maybe all these "curmudgeons" are on to something :)

    One thing google earth has done for me that no topo map could was give me a great idea of anchor availability. I first saw the big canyon between Behunin and Mount Majestic when looking at a topo map. I knew I wanted to find a way down the 800 foot headwall at the back of the canyon, but it wasn't until I checked google earth that I was able to know for sure that there were enough anchors to get down something that size using a set of standard 200ft ropes. This sure knowledge may take the adventure out of it for some, but not having the privilege of living locally and being able to hike up to Mount Majestic myself, knowing if this goal was even possible was an absolute requirement before I would do something like take off work for several days and have 2 friends fly out to join me. I was able to plan almost my exact path down the headwall using google earth and still got the fun adventure of having the main canyon remain a mystery:
    http://canyoncollective.com/threads...ehunin-behunin-direct-via-the-headwall.25556/
  19. Jman

    Jman

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    Nice, thanks for sharing the context with that. That’s a fun exploratory TR.


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  20. Canyonero

    Canyonero

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    Wasn't it fun that nobody told you for sure you could get down that wall with a 200 footer? You got to figure that out yourself. That ability to do an exploration is something that goes away as soon as beta gets published about a canyon. I'm all for beta on some canyons. Just not all canyons.
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