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Gear~Common Rope Lengths

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by davewyo1, Dec 19, 2005.

  1. davewyo1

    davewyo1 Guest

    What length ropes do you take(in your gear bag)on your canyon trips to fit all the possibilities?I have 9mmx67',8mmx100' and 8mmx200'with pull cords to match.I plan to get a long rope.What lengths do you seem to always use?

    Do you generally rap on one strand or are you a double rope devote'?Or do you mix it up?I often rap on a single strand.

    Do you use a rope bag or coil?I bag it.
  2. adkramoo

    adkramoo Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "davewyo1" <davewyo@h...> wrote:
    What length ropes do you take(in your gear bag)on your canyon trips to > fit all the possibilities?I have 9mmx67',8mmx100' and 8mmx200'with > pull cords to match.I plan to get a long rope.What lengths do you seem > to always use?

    Every canyon is different. An unknown canyon? Bring all the rope you have. One you have good beta on? Depends. Sometimes just enough, other canyons, where ropes get stuck frequently, you can take nearly twice the called for amount. Other considerations....Large group? A bunch of short raps? If so, bring many short ropes. Every situation is custom. As for what rope lengths? I try and start with a huge spool and cut to need. 60 m is the most popular length. Then ropes get core shot and cut. The size of my short ropes are determined by the core shots. Mix and match.

    > Do you use a rope bag or coil?I bag it.

    Rope bag, for sure, especially when there are multple raps. Just a few on the day? May leave it behind. Ram >
  3. davewyo1

    davewyo1 Guest

    You bring up a good point.A few people in the group have stated some strong feelings on the need to carry more full-sized rope than you think you'll need.Seems sensible with a large group in a fairly well known canyon or in a canyon with many raps over coarse rock etc.etc.So how much extra is good? example;The guidebook says this is a popular canyon with a longest rap of 40'.Do you;#1 Carry 40' and a pull cord.(worse case senerio?) #2 Carry 60' and the pull cord?In the event of a core shot you could sacrifice some rope.(safer?)#3 Carry 80' of rope and the pull cord? If you stuck some rope you could abandon it.(over-kill?) I often carry twice what I'll need but i have been known to take just what's required at times.Especially if there's only a couple of raps that day or if I feel that the canyon isn't too threatening.If you think about it,this is faulty reasoning.A tame canyon with few drops could take your life just as easily as a highly technical one.As you pointed out,the canyons change dramatically.Anything can happen...

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "adkramoo" <adkramoo@a...> wrote:
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "davewyo1" <davewyo@h...> wrote:

    What length ropes do you take(in your gear bag)on your canyon trips to
    fit all the possibilities?I have 9mmx67',8mmx100' and 8mmx200'with
    pull cords to match.I plan to get a long rope.What lengths do you seem
    to always use?
    Every canyon is different. An unknown canyon? Bring all the rope you > have. One you have good beta on? Depends. Sometimes just enough, other > canyons, where ropes get stuck frequently, you can take nearly twice > the called for amount. Other considerations....Large group? A bunch of > short raps? If so, bring many short ropes. Every situation is custom. > As for what rope lengths? I try and start with a huge spool and cut to > need. 60 m is the most popular length. Then ropes get core shot and > cut. The size of my short ropes are determined by the core shots. Mix > and match.

    Do you use a rope bag or coil?I bag it.
    Rope bag, for sure, especially when there are multple raps. Just a few > on the day? May leave it behind. > Ram
    >
  4. Your rope collection sounds like a perfect start. Now cut up those pull cords for anchor material and other useful things and use rope to pull rope.

    I like to buy my standard rope @ 225' off the spool. As time wears on them I find the assorted short ropes from beat up 225' ropes. On many trips I carry a 225' 9mm and a 225' 8mm to suit. Cuts down on weight and if things go bad I'm not stuck Jerry rigg'in w/pull cord. YMMV

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "davewyo1" <davewyo@h...> wrote:
    What length ropes do you take(in your gear bag)on your canyon trips to > fit all the possibilities?I have 9mmx67',8mmx100' and 8mmx200'with > pull cords to match.I plan to get a long rope.What lengths do you seem > to always use?



  5. Hank Moon

    Hank Moon Guest

    Hey, what's wrong with pull cord? I use it all the time - no probs...

    ________________________________

    From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of neil wilkinson Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 3:56 PM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Re: Gear~Common Rope Lengths

    --- The information in this message and/or attachments is intended solely for the attention and use of the named addressee and may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you have received this e-mail in error and any use of it is prohibited. In such a case please notify the sender and kindly delete this message from your computer and network.

    Thank you, Petzl America
  6. adkramoo

    adkramoo Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, neil wilkinson <mtngoat59102@y...> wrote:
    Your rope collection sounds like a perfect start. Now cut up those pull cords for anchor material and other useful things and use rope to pull rope.

    Au contraire, my friend. Those pull cords have so many uses. 1-Less weight for me old back 2-Emergency anchor material. Can cheat on how much webbing brought 3-can do short raps off of it (6 mm doubled or quadrupled) 4-The best for pothole pack tosses. One 50m pullcord and you can toss 8 things off it 5-Pack zip lines and on and on

    I still carry enough rope to do every rap doubled (Ummm except for this one and that time and...), but the pull cord seems to come into play almost daily. R
  7. Benny R

    Benny R Guest

    Mystery with a 200' rope and some pull cord seemed like a good idea and it was. Behunin with 200' of rope and 200' of pull cord seemed like a bad idea-- once we were already in to it and had a few close calls with stuck ropes-- and it was. I suppose it depends on your experience, and I would say if you don't know whether its a good idea or not then its probably not. Now I've accumulated several short ropes, I find that people don't mind carrying short ropes and they come in very handy. Use them single on short raps, double on medium raps, and doubled/tripled as a pull cord with your "long rope" (which can stay light in a dry bag) for the longest rap(s) in the canyon. Also allows for some "leap-frogging" in sections with multiple rappels. Also nice to have short ropes for hand lines, pack tosses, etc. Its good for weight distribution in a medium or large sized group, but not always feasible if you have a small group or don't own a bunch of small ropes (you will soon, though, just wait). We have also used our anchor webbing double as a pull chord on several occasions, but if you use your anchor webbing as an anchor then you are left without pull cord so plan a cord ingly



    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "davewyo1" <davewyo@h...> wrote: > You bring up a good point.A few people in the group have stated >some > strong feelings on the need to carry more full-sized rope than you > think you'll need.Seems sensible with a large group in a fairly well > known canyon or in a canyon with many raps over coarse rock > etc.etc.So how much extra is good? > example;The guidebook says this is a popular canyon with a longest > rap of 40'.Do you;#1 Carry 40' and a pull cord.(worse case senerio?) > #2 Carry 60' and the pull cord?In the event of a core shot you could > sacrifice some rope.(safer?)#3 Carry 80' of rope and the pull cord? > If you stuck some rope you could abandon it.(over-kill?)
  8. davewyo1

    davewyo1 Guest

    Me too.I mostly rap on one strand even when i have enough rope to double it.It just seems easier when I'm using a rope bag.The short rope is in a cord bag and the pull cord is in a potshot and both deploy without a problem.If it's a short drop I double the rope to avoid having out two ropes where one will do_Of course,the cord bag and potshot can also be used for tosses.

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Hank Moon" <hmoon@p...> wrote:
    > Hey, what's wrong with pull cord? I use it all the time - no probs...
    ________________________________
    From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf > Of neil wilkinson > Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 3:56 PM > To: Yahoo Canyons Group
    Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Re: Gear~Common Rope Lengths
    > --- > The information in this message and/or attachments is intended solely for the attention and use of the named addressee and may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you have received this e-mail in error and any use of it is prohibited. In such a case please notify the sender and kindly delete this message from your computer and network.
    Thank you, Petzl America >
  9. See ... it's great for all those 'other' uses. :) Just like I posted. All kidding aside, why not go out back and beat the pull cord horse one more time just for fun. Carrying enough rope to do the longest drop doubled is a good standard. If you're experienced or know the canyon many exceptions abound. Depending on pull cord as part of your primary system before you get your training wheels off is a bad idea, IMO. YOMV.

    Neil

    adkramoo adkramoo@aol.com> wrote: --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, neil wilkinson <mtngoat59102@y...> wrote:
    Your rope collection sounds like a perfect start. Now cut up those pull cords for anchor material and other useful things and use rope to pull rope.

    Au contraire, my friend. Those pull cords have so many uses. 1-Less weight for me old back 2-Emergency anchor material. Can cheat on how much webbing brought 3-can do short raps off of it (6 mm doubled or quadrupled) 4-The best for pothole pack tosses. One 50m pullcord and you can toss 8 things off it 5-Pack zip lines and on and on

    I still carry enough rope to do every rap doubled (Ummm except for this one and that time and...), but the pull cord seems to come into play almost daily. R





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  10. davewyo1

    davewyo1 Guest

    >All kidding aside, why not go out back and beat the pull cord horse one more time just for fun.

    Why not lash that ol nag one more time?It doesn't hurt(me).I must have missed the last go round.It still seems fresh to me.

    >Carrying enough rope to do the longest drop doubled is a good standard.

    Sounds reasonable.

    >If you're experienced or know the canyon many exceptions abound. Depending on pull cord as part of your primary system before you get your training wheels off is a bad idea, IMO. YOMV.

    Even more reasonable

    But the original question had to do with what you carry in the car not in the canyon.If I'm going to offer to haul the ropes,it would help if I had some useful lengths...and you already answered that.I gotta say that"perfect start"sounds good to me.


    > Your rope collection sounds like a perfect start.
  11. davewyo1

    davewyo1 Guest

    > Every canyon is different. An unknown canyon? Bring all the rope you > have.

    So,do you carry a dynamic rope and a set of friends etc. when you check out an unknown canyon?I mean,should I be hauling that stuff too?
  12. adkramoo

    adkramoo Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "davewyo1" <davewyo@h...> wrote:

    > So,do you carry a dynamic rope and a set of friends etc. when you > check out an unknown canyon?I mean,should I be hauling that stuff too?

    We brought a dynamic rope and a mountaineers rack for the ascent up South Fork Heaps, on our way to explore Isaac Canyon, last September. Turns out it wasn't needed, but you never know. Taking that type of gear gets done, but rarely. Ram
  13. Did you make it all the way through Issac, or just explore the upper end?

    We brought a dynamic rope and a mountaineers rack for the ascent up South Fork Heaps, on our way to explore Isaac Canyon, last September. Turns out it wasn't needed, but you never know. Taking that type of gear gets done, but rarely. Ram





  14. ionsmuse

    ionsmuse Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "davewyo1" <davewyo@h...> wrote:
    What length ropes do you take....I plan to get a long rope.What lengths do you seem > to always use?

    I have a 60m, and a 50 and 100 footer (all 9mm). The 100 is used probably 4 to 5 times more than the others (the 50 footer is pretty useless). It is now, unfortunately, shrunken to about 88 feet! Still the most used. When it dies, I plan to get a 125' 8mm. I also have two 100' pull cords, I can bring one or both (tied together) as the situation dictates.

    > Do you generally rap on one strand or are you a double rope devote

    I prefer single almost always, in most situations (save big free hangers) double is more friction than I prefer.


    > Do you use a rope bag or coil?I bag it.

    Depends. Lots of raps and bagging can be useful, not too many, coil. Coiling is smaller and lighter. I always bag pullcords. Always. >
  15. adkramoo

    adkramoo Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, scott patterson <kesscokim@y...> wrote:
    Did you make it all the way through Issac, or just explore the upper end?

    We did. Recycled post from Sept 21 this year called "the NEW Escape from Heaps"

    This last weekend, Bucky, Stevee B, Tom and I descended Isaac Canyon. I will be writing up a short report on the trip in the next day or two. Of importance is that we have found an easier and relatively safe way to escape Heaps Canyon, from Crossroads, which is a common camping location, half way through the canyon.

    Heaps, with its cold water and climbing challenges, is among, if not, the most challenging canyon in Zion. Below Crossroads, is 4-5 hours of wet and challenging canyon, followed by a 525 foot wall to descend back into the "land of the living."

    If a group is hypothermic upon arrival at Crossroads, they are likely to have even more trouble down canyon. Also, a major dry suit failure could also lead someone to consider escaping by another route. Over a decade ago, I escaped Crossroads in very icy conditions, one March, but my exit up Phantom and down the Right Fork took about 2 full days and was quite complex.

    We found our route up into Isaac Canyon and out the Court of the Patriarch's reasonable and mostly dry. I am going to give a route description. I am also going to send it to the Park staff.

    From Crossroads, ascend up the South Fork of Heaps. The climbing move at the first dryfall, is the most challenging part of the ascent. A gymnastic mantle move, just 5 feet up, that is aided up with partner assist quite easily and safely. Two other short and safe moves, higher up canyon, are made easy by lifting one's pack up first. Once over the pass and into Isaac Canyon, one rap of 50 feet is encountered quickly and then several moderately difficult downclimbs, with abundant natural anchors available. The final wall starts with a 70 foot free rap off of a log, over a boulder. Avoid the ancient pins. A short downclimb leads to the final drop, which is about 270 feet. It has one bolt and a small corner, that takes webbing, for back up, as anchors. The bolt is in the watercourse, so it is vulnerable to flood forces. The final drop can likely can be broken into 2 raps, as there is a ledge almost half way down with webbing nearby, although none of us inspected this option carefully. Below the big wall, a landslide and cliff band is passed on the left, looking down valley, after a 150 feet of "side of the hill" bushwhack and then down to the social trails and out the Court of the Patriarch's.

    This escape route is largely in it's wilderness state, so it should not be taken lightly and the final drop is serious and will likely not be set by a series of passing canyoneers, but it offers a drier and easier exit from Heaps, for those in trouble. Also it needs to be considered, that if a party is well behind it's time, that no one will look for you on this bail out route, so consider you options carefully. Still, it is a nice alternative to be aware of. Ram
  16. canyonclimb

    canyonclimb Guest

    Having been down heaps and sitting out a flash flood, would this option also be possible in flood conditions or is the water course to narrow. Like most Zion floods they can be waited out, but if you encounter a storm that doesn't lift while camping at the crossroads, could this route be done? Rhett

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "adkramoo" <adkramoo@a...> wrote:
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, scott patterson <kesscokim@y...> wrote:

    Did you make it all the way through Issac, or just explore the upper > end?
    We did. Recycled post from Sept 21 this year called "the NEW Escape > from Heaps"
    This last weekend, Bucky, Stevee B, Tom and I descended Isaac Canyon. > I will > be writing up a short report on the trip in the next day or two. Of > importance > is that we have found an easier and relatively safe way to escape Heaps > Canyon, from Crossroads, which is a common camping location, half way > through > the > canyon.
    Heaps, with its cold water and climbing challenges, is among, if not, the > most challenging canyon in Zion. Below Crossroads, is 4-5 hours of wet and > challenging canyon, followed by a 525 foot wall to descend back into > the "land > of > the living."
    If a group is hypothermic upon arrival at Crossroads, they are likely > to have > even more trouble down canyon. Also, a major dry suit failure could > also lead > someone to consider escaping by another route. Over a decade ago, I > escaped > Crossroads in very icy conditions, one March, but my exit up Phantom > and down > the Right Fork took about 2 full days and was quite complex.
    We found our route up into Isaac Canyon and out the Court of the > Patriarch's > reasonable and mostly dry. I am going to give a route description. I > am also > going to send it to the Park staff.
    From Crossroads, ascend up the South Fork of Heaps. The climbing move > at the > first dryfall, is the most challenging part of the ascent. A gymnastic > mantle > move, just 5 feet up, that is aided up with partner assist quite > easily and > safely. Two other short and safe moves, higher up canyon, are made easy by > lifting one's pack up first. Once over the pass and into Isaac Canyon, > one rap > of > 50 feet is encountered quickly and then several moderately difficult > downclimbs, with abundant natural anchors available. The final wall > starts with > a 70 > foot free rap off of a log, over a boulder. Avoid the ancient pins. A > short > downclimb leads to the final drop, which is about 270 feet. It has one > bolt and > a > small corner, that takes webbing, for back up, as anchors. The bolt is > in the > watercourse, so it is vulnerable to flood forces. The final drop can > likely can > be broken into 2 raps, as there is a ledge almost half way down with > webbing > nearby, although none of us inspected this option carefully. Below the big > wall, a landslide and cliff band is passed on the left, looking down > valley, > after a 150 feet of "side of the hill" bushwhack and then down to the > social > trails and out the Court of the Patriarch's.
    This escape route is largely in it's wilderness state, so it should not be > taken lightly and the final drop is serious and will likely not be set > by a > series of passing canyoneers, but it offers a drier and easier exit > from Heaps, > for those in trouble. Also it needs to be considered, that if a party > is well > behind it's time, that no one will look for you on this bail out route, so > consider you options carefully. Still, it is a nice alternative to be > aware of. > Ram >
  17. adkramoo

    adkramoo Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "canyonclimb" <canyonclimb@y...> wrote:
    Having been down heaps and sitting out a flash flood, would this > option also be possible in flood conditions or is the water course to > narrow. Like most Zion floods they can be waited out, but if you > encounter a storm that doesn't lift while camping at the crossroads, > could this route be done? > Rhett

    Hey Rhett Both the trip up SF Heaps and the way down Isaac has a few slot sections, but a lot of areas where one can get out of the bottom easily. The canyons were quite vegetated and don't flow often. There is a section, leading into the grand finale rap in Isaac that would be committing. It is only 100 yards long. Aside from that one section, the route is a sound escape option in all but biblical rains. Ram
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