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Gear~Carabiner Wear

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by davewyo1, Jan 26, 2006.

  1. davewyo1

    davewyo1 Guest

    I've been seeing some folks using seriously worn carabiners and belay devices for canyoneering.Is there a standard that says when you should throw out those carabiners with a big groove.I understand that in canyoning one doesn't intend to put dynamic stresses on the system,but...A locking carabiner costs around $10.Think about it.
  2. Most manufacturers will tell you to retire the carabiner as soon as it shows significan wear. What's that mean? Hard to say.

    With carabiners, it's probably prudent to retire 'em when the wear groove gets a couple of milimeters deep. At this point, I don't believe they've lost much of their strength and it is easy to identify this amount of wear. Much past that it's kinda up to you how far you want to push it. $10 is pretty cheap for life insurance.

    Charly



    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "davewyo1" <davewyo@h...> wrote:
    I've been seeing some folks using seriously worn carabiners and belay > devices for canyoneering.Is there a standard that says when you should > throw out those carabiners with a big groove.I understand that in > canyoning one doesn't intend to put dynamic stresses on the > system,but...A locking carabiner costs around $10.Think about it. >
  3. Charly is 100% right here. Is $15 worth your life? Just a side note, wear on a carabiner should NEVER go to the point as thin as where the gate closes. In limited and unscientific 'pull' tests on significantly worn biners they still break at the point where the gate closes. Typically, (whatever that means) worn biners I have seen break at about a 10 -20% reduction in published strength but do not break at the point of (typical) rope wear in the baskets but at the gate.

    Food for thought ...

    Charly Oliver charlybldr@mindspring.com> wrote: Most manufacturers will tell you to retire the carabiner as soon as it shows significan wear. What's that mean? Hard to say.

    With carabiners, it's probably prudent to retire 'em when the wear groove gets a couple of milimeters deep. At this point, I don't believe they've lost much of their strength and it is easy to identify this amount of wear. Much past that it's kinda up to you how far you want to push it. $10 is pretty cheap for life insurance.

    Charly

    With a free 1 GB, there's more in store with Mail.
  4. Todd

    Todd Guest

    Better yet - use a stainless steel carabiner with your rap device. I've been using the same one for the past 4 years (and quite a few canyons) and it still shows very little wear.

    They are about twice as strong as aluminum to begin with and don't leave all that black stuff on your rope.

    They are heavier obviously, and about double the price of aluminum. But I'd bet they are more cost effective in the long term and the few extra ounces will only make your legs stronger.

    -Todd

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, neil wilkinson <mtngoat59102@y...> wrote:
    Charly is 100% right here. Is $15 worth your life? Just a side note, wear on a carabiner should NEVER go to the point as thin as where the gate closes. In limited and unscientific 'pull' tests on significantly worn biners they still break at the point where the gate closes. Typically, (whatever that means) worn biners I have seen break at about a 10 -20% reduction in published strength but do not break at the point of (typical) rope wear in the baskets but at the gate.
    Food for thought ...
    Charly Oliver <charlybldr@m...> wrote: > Most manufacturers will tell you to retire the carabiner as soon as it > shows significan wear. What's that mean? Hard to say.
    With carabiners, it's probably prudent to retire 'em when the wear > groove gets a couple of milimeters deep. At this point, I don't > believe they've lost much of their strength and it is easy to identify > this amount of wear. Much past that it's kinda up to you how far you > want to push it. $10 is pretty cheap for life insurance.
    Charly
    > > With a free 1 GB, there's more in store with Mail.
    >
  5. Roger that, I have a steel Omega myself .... lasts and lasts

    Todd todds_hiking_guide@yahoo.com> wrote:

    They are heavier obviously, and about double the price of aluminum. But I'd bet they are more cost effective in the long term and the few extra ounces will only make your legs stronger.

    -Todd

    With a free 1 GB, there's more in store with Mail.
  6. Neil

    Neil Guest

  7. davewyo1

    davewyo1 Guest

    Thanks,that was interesting.I wonder what the results would be for a sudden dynamic load.Would the carabiner fold or crush under the pressure or would the gate still be the weakest point?

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Neil" <mtngoat59102@y...> wrote:
    Here is some unofficial data on this subject if you're interested. > (actual pull test)
    http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=532
  8. Tom Jones

    Tom Jones Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "davewyo1" <davewyo@h...> wrote:
    Thanks,that was interesting.I wonder what the results would be for a > sudden dynamic load.Would the carabiner fold or crush under the > pressure or would the gate still be the weakest point? >

    Contrary to popular belief, the speed with which a load needs to be applied to be "dynamic" (to have characteristics different than a static load) to a metal carabiner is in the range of one ten- thousandth of a second. So please do not worry about this, because you will not be applying loads this fast.

    You may ask, what happens when you load up a carabiner?

    With the gate closed, a carabiner is actually a bending problem. Most of the load is held on the spine, but then the load tries to un-bend the basket of the carabiner, which transfers the load out to the gate- side. Eventually, the un-bending puts enough force over on the nose that the nosepin or nose hook breaks. After the nose breaks, the carabiner nose and the end of the gate are often 1" apart.

    What happens if you wear this down with rappelling? This would make the basket less-stiff, tending to transfer more load to the nose quicker. However, those ridges could also capture the testing set-up in, keeping it close to the spine, and making the biner stronger.

    Real-world - in rappelling, you are not producing loads even close to those required to get the biner to fail, but it is still worth replacing when worn, so you don't have to worry about it.

    Tom
  9. davewyo1

    davewyo1 Guest

    > Contrary to popular belief, the speed with which a load needs to >be > applied to be "dynamic" (to have characteristics different than a > static load) to a metal carabiner is in the range of one ten- > thousandth of a second. So please do not worry about this, >because > you will not be applying loads this fast.

    Really?That is interesting indeed!Seems counterintuitive to the layman.

    > Real-world - in rappelling, you are not producing loads even close to > those required to get the biner to fail, but it is still worth > replacing when worn, so you don't have to worry about it.
    Tom

    Yeah,I guess that,if you ever fell with enough force on a static rope to even begin to worry about unbending a carabiner,you would break your back and scramble your guts.The human body would be the weak link.
  10. Tom Jones

    Tom Jones Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "davewyo1" <davewyo@h...> wrote:

    Contrary to popular belief, the speed with which a load needs to >be applied to be "dynamic" (to have characteristics different than a static load) to a metal carabiner is in the range of one ten-
    thousandth of a second. So please do not worry about this, >because
    you will not be applying loads this fast.
    Really?That is interesting indeed!Seems counterintuitive to the layman.

    Real-world - in rappelling, you are not producing loads even close to those required to get the biner to fail, but it is still worth replacing when worn, so you don't have to worry about it.

    Tom
    Yeah,I guess that,if you ever fell with enough force on a static rope to even begin to worry about unbending a carabiner,you would break your back and scramble your guts.The human body would be the weak link. > Actually, probably not. If you used protection other than bolts, you would break the wire on a wired stopper, or the rock around the nut or cam. You could break cams. You could break your belayer (ie, at those forces, without a grigri, the belay fails). You can break biners, Gate Open (cause they whiplash open, just at the wrong time). And even if the rope and everything held you, your body would really, really hurt, since it would be the ONLY dynamic link in the chain (other than the belay, which your partner dropped).

    Tom
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