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Tech Tip: Question For the big ones: rappel tips and devices

Discussion in 'Tech Tips and Gear' started by Mountaineer, Mar 13, 2015.

  1. Mountaineer

    Mountaineer Is that an X slot?

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    Before chopping up a new 600' 8mm spool of rope, I pondered using the full length a couple of times.

    Any tips for raps over 400', 500' and more? Specifically, using 8mm rope?

    It seems there may be techniques and best practices to compliment for the bigger raps.

    On the few 300' raps I've done, using ATC/ATS type devices, I've found:
    • Arm fatigue feeding the rope
    • Extra finesse needed to reduce bounce due to feeding
    • Slow and steady to reduce heat
    • Start at low friction, then add friction later on when needed
    I assume I could safely employee the same techniques for big raps, with an ATC/ATS or similar. Other techniques or issues to keep in mind?

    Furthermore, I understand using a rack helps with the heat and adjusting friction, and assume it is best to use a rack system for the big ones. If so, what type of rack would be recommended for 8mm rope?

    Or, for just the 1-2x rare use, is it simply using the same skills and getting to the gym to increase my arm strength? :oldman:
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  2. mattwilliams

    mattwilliams

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    Sqwurl all the way. (Coming soon!)
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  3. Mountaineer

    Mountaineer Is that an X slot?

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    Ok, I'm excited... How soon is soon?
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  4. Kuenn

    Kuenn

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    Sorry, Mark. Got zero experience on 8mm and those numbers. When you get into that range, even fat ropes start looking skinny. Can't imagine what a 600 foot stretch would look like on 8mm....might be better not to look.:eek:

    Even so, I'm confident the rack would serve you well. But then, you probably expected me to say that. :)
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2015
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  5. mattwilliams

    mattwilliams

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    I dont know an exact release date, but I think it should be within the next couple of months. I am certainly hoping sooner than later since I have almost worn my prototype out!

    To answer your original question Mark, Luke designed the Sqwurl to accommodate big dudes (and gals) on 8mm rope without a leg loop or other additional friction setup. Big raps should be no different, other than the mind game. The weight of the rope will just add more friction at the top of the rap, so adjust the setting as the rope weight decreases and arm fatigue sets in.
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  6. hank moon

    hank moon kinetically bulbous

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    #1 comment (among other #1 comments): Protect the rope

    A 600' descent can take awhile, especially if your system/technique isn't dialed and feeding is involved (which you already mentioned).

    Bouncing around for too long on 8mm running over bare rock can be deadly. Pad the rope, or (if possible) rig it to avoid rub points.
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2015
  7. Kuenn

    Kuenn

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    I'm looking forward to the SQWURL's debut. From what few pictures I've seen, it looks like it has real potential. Based solely on perceived qualities I think I observed - straight rope path - weave design for friction - and what appears to be the ability to add/subtract friction in flight... all elements I look for in a rappel device. And definitely needed elements to safely do the big ones.

    Can't wait to get my hands on the rodent!
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  8. hank moon

    hank moon kinetically bulbous

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    X2
  9. Taylor

    Taylor

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    A couple of ideas: Hang your pack. Use a Critr. A chest harness with a prussik attached above the device works nicely if you need to lean back and rest when ascending. Add my vote for edge protection for the rope.
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  10. Kuenn

    Kuenn

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    A few thoughts:
    • I would suggest that the ATC/ATS is simply not the device for such lengths. Sure, you can modify it by extending, adding a Z, leg loop, etc. It's a mixed bag solution, IMO. And as mattwilliams pointed out, the top of the big drop is not where you need more friction, it's just the opposite. You don't want the process of adding friction, as you descend, to be complicated.
    • Arm fatigue is a sure sign you don't have the right device and/or setup. If you're feeding rope, you're glossing over the root problem.
    • I have found bounce to be a tricky issue to defeat, 100% of the time. And sometimes it is just plain unavoidable. Dialing in a smooth ride will certainly help. But external influences like wind, if the rope has dirty/wet sections, stretch and speed - which creates a condition we call zip-n-stick, are conditional factors that contribute to bounce. When it happens, the best thing to do is stop and resume when the bouncing subsides.
    • Heat created during a rappel is a minor issue, IMO. For some, it's undesirable, especially if your hand protection is inadequate. Rope smoke'n won't do much more than glaze your rope.
    I would be very interested in the places you are considering for big rides out there. (Hopefully big ride doesn't also mean big approach.) Do you have something already in mind?
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  11. Blake Merrell

    Blake Merrell Lovin' Utah's Backcountry

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    I am a fan of the CRITR Z (Totem Z, or ATS Z as well) rig. Super smooth for me for the whole trip down. (My longest rappel is Heaps though. Ymmv)
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2015
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  12. Rapterman

    Rapterman

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    Glad to hear Luke's SQWURL is happening! :)
    A side note for CRITR fans-
    We have tweaked the CRITR design by lowering the initial friction setting.
    This helps the CRITR to run smoother on fatter ropes / with smaller people and kids.
    It also helps the CRITR to perform better on bigger drops where there is a lot more friction at the top due to rope weight.
    The CRITR 2 begins production this week. We will post on the CRITR thread
    Best
    Todd and Desi
  13. Kuenn

    Kuenn

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    I recall a real nice picture of you with, I believe, a CRITR-Z at the perch in Heaps. Looked good.

    I suppose everyone has their own preference for rigs/lengths. I would suggest that somewhere between 400' - 500' the game starts to change. I've done 400+ on a static setup; where I got by without having to adjust friction. And if you're lighter, I think that number is much shorter. At my weight and over 500', in all honesty, the rig and the rope diameter are changing. I don't have the nerve for 500+ on 8mm, and probably not even 9mm. Wouldn't take much of a rope ping to make for a really bad outing. Your mileage, and nerve, may vary.
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2015
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  14. Mountaineer

    Mountaineer Is that an X slot?

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    I tend to agree, ATC/ATS would work, but has perhaps more risk than other devices. I'm hesitant to try a new technique on such a big commitment, at least not without lots of practice first.

    There are lots of places for big rides I've found, some with very small approaches. Lake Powell area, Angel Cove area, etc.

    Thought it would be fun to try before the rope goes under the knife.
  15. Mountaineer

    Mountaineer Is that an X slot?

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    I think you just made my decision Kuenn. Safety first.
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  16. Blake Merrell

    Blake Merrell Lovin' Utah's Backcountry

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    Thanks! It truly is a smooth ride. That z-rig with a prusik backup, so nice!
  17. Scott Patterson

    Scott Patterson

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    The longest rappel I've ever done in a canyon was 322'. It was enough. 600 feet is really long. Which canyon are you planning on using it?
  18. Kuenn

    Kuenn

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    I've found that practicing for a big drop can really be a lot of fun. Simulating rope weight is probably the easiest to do. We practice by going to a 40 footer, take a duffel bag and some dead weight. Once you've crossed over the edge, call for weight (attached to rope at the bottom). It's even fun to add more weight (way more than you would typically see in the field) just to see what you are able to do to overcome the friction challenges and start moving again.

    Just be sure and reset the friction or auto-bloc before they release the weight.
    I left 650' of new 10mm at a friends house in La Verkin. It's available if you're interested, or maybe we can hook up and do something big later on this year.
    I hate cutting up new rope, something too final about it.
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  19. Mountaineer

    Mountaineer Is that an X slot?

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    Great stuff Kuenn. I'll take you up on the 10mm practice when you get back here. I have some great ideas, easy approach, with fantastic views.
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  20. Taylor

    Taylor

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    Good lord, can you imagine lugging around 650' of 10mm? That's gotta be 35-40 lbs of rope.
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