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First rap in Spry- simul on EDK

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by gootwan, Nov 5, 2017.

  1. gootwan

    gootwan

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    I am part of a large group (6) going through Spry this week and was thinking of ways to quicken our pace due to the shorter daylight times this time of year. My question is regarding the first rap, the long 165ish ft slab. I was thinking of connecting two 200ft ropes with an EDK, then adding a Stone knot (below the EDK), then sending down two at a time, then the last two clean the Stone and simul-rap. This would be the only rap we simul on, given its length and the fact its on an angled slab.

    I've used the Stone before for simul-rapping. I've used the EDK before for single rapping. But never used an EDK for a simul rap and wondering if I'd be pushing the limits of its strength on this particular rappel?
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  2. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    You mean, like this?

    spry08.
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  3. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    What are you using for ropes? How strong do you think the EDK is, in this situation? Why do you think that?

    Tom
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  4. Rapterman

    Rapterman

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    The entertaining part for your LAPARS will be the transition to the 'climb around' at the bottom to avoid swinging into the pool.
    What could go wrong?
    :D
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  5. gootwan

    gootwan

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    2 8.3 Canyon Fire ropes

    A properly prepared EDK is strong enough to safely rappel on for one person free hanging. I THINK it is strong enough for two on an angled rappel... but just thought I'd ask :)
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  6. CRNPRES

    CRNPRES

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    The stone knot will work fine below the EDK. I would not simul the last 2 without the stone I personally do not like the idea of a person on each side with the possibility of the EDK getting forced through the quicklink. If the EDK gets forced half way through the quicklink, it could get stuck (there will be movement and even putting the heavy person on the EDK side will not guarantee that the knot is not pulled in, there's a lot more force here than the friction difference of a rap devise).

    If I was going to simul it with 6, I would set EDK and stone knot up, send one confident member down (with a backup of some sort), then send a pair down simul with first guy belaying, then second pair. Then the last person removes stone and doubles.

    If your worried about time in Spry, there has to be something else going on with your group, experience level? Multiple canyons in one day? I typically choose more ropes and leap frogging a group first over simul raps if you have the experienced members to do it.
  7. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    This is a particularly good rappel to do as a simul.

    I would put a biner block in against the rapide at the start, then EDK, then Stone Knot. I agree with CRNPRES (Cairn Prestadiginator?) that it is better to have the last person go conventional rather than as part of a simul pair... but it depends.

    Spry is a good choice this time of year. Getting an early start is your best weapon against being beknighted.

    Tom
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  8. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    It IS good to be concerned about putting two people on any anchor. Usually, we worry about the anchor itself being strong enough to be safe for a two-person load.

    Unfortunately, my testing rig is not yet built, so I am making up numbers here, but...

    The EDK (actually, STACKED overhand EDK) is just a knot, in the class of knots known as a BEND. It is not unusual, and like most bends, it has a "loss of strength". Let's call it 50%, which is conservative. It does have somewhat more "loss of strength" than some other bends.

    Canyon Fire has a strength of 4100 lbF, and is about the weakest rope in general use. Let's call it 4000 to make it easier. At the anchor, that means the strand with the knot in it is worth 2000 lbs, and due to tension balance, the strand on the other side will also be holding 2000 lbs. So the overall system is worth 4000 lbs.

    Each of the rappelling strands also goes through a Stone Knot, (in the class of knots known as a HITCH), which also constitutes a "loss of strength". Without measuring it, we would suspect that the strength through a Stone Knot would be about 60%, but let's call it 50% or 2000 lbs.

    So to get an individual strand to break on rappel, you would need to apply 2000 lbs. To get the EDK to fail, you would need to apply 2000 lbs to both strands at the same time.

    In general, worst case on rappel (OK, there are possible worster cases), one can inflict 3X bodyweight on the rope. So, as long as none of your companions are in the 600 pound range, you should be OK. However, IF your companions are in the 600 lb range, have them rappel on both strands.

    Tom
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  9. gootwan

    gootwan

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    Thank you... I hadn't thought of the knot sticking in the rapide so we will add the biner block as a precaution, as Tom suggested, and have the last person clean and rap solo.

    I'm pretty sure we'll be fine on time but I'm just looking for opportunities to efficiently pick up the pace. We did Spry two years ago at this time of year with basically the same group (one newbie) and did the last rappel at dusk. Want to avoid that this time. We will get an earlier start too.
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  10. gootwan

    gootwan

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    Great info. Thank you Tom!
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  11. 2065toyota

    2065toyota

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    Spry is a 5 to 6 hour canyon. You should have plenty of daylight for the canyon
  12. gajslk

    gajslk

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    Take more ropes and leapfrog them. You can really move a bigger group along if folks are rapping on two or three consecutive drops at the same time. At any given drop, a person carrying a rope moves to the head of the line. When he gets to the next unrigged drop, he rigs it and waits there until everyone has played through. Then he pulls it and moves forward as quickly as possible. That person "owns" that rope and never leaves it. On longer drops you can rig single line and get everyone but one of other rope carriers down canyon before rerigging a pull down of some sort. Much better bang for the buck than screwing around with simul-rappelling one drop. For a group of seven, four ropes is about right so long as you have four people competent to rig.
  13. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    There are many ways to speed things up, but the most effective, in my experience, is the "pep talk". The pep talk negates a couple of things that often happen in social canyons, what I call "surprises".

    Some people are surprised that it is their turn to rappel. So soon?

    Some people are surprised that they are supposed to yell "OFF ROPE" when they are off rope.

    Some people are surprised that the rope needs to be pulled after a rappel, and that the ropes need to be stuffed. Who knew?

    Some people are surprised that part of the team can move forward before everyone is down and the rope has been pulled and stuffed back in the bag.

    Some people are surprised that the ropes need to get to the front of the group.

    Some people are even surprised that the rope that is in their pack counts as a "rope" when someone asks "who's got a rope?".

    Letting everyone know at the start that these things will happen, so they should not be surprises, can go a long way to moving the group expeditiously down the canyon.

    Tom

    (thanks to Tom C for surprise #4)
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
  14. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    We often do something similar, but ropes can be passed forward. Since Spry has no raps longer than 100 feet other than the first one, bringing two 200' ropes seems like plenty, although, other options could be better.

    I like to do Roly-poly. The person in front rigs the rappel (or solves the problem) and stands aside, and rappels last. (The first shall be last!). The second to last rapper is in charge of pulling and stuffing the rope. The rope then moves forward through the people.

    Personally, for Spry, I would bring 1 x 200'er and 2 x 120'ers. Set up a meat anchor at the 2/3 point pothole on that first rappel. Set it up off the top anchor Stoned so two ropes can be used down to the pothole. Use the meat to get down from there. I am told it is dryish, so there might not even be a puddle at the bottom of the first rap. Same process on the "under the square block" rappel. Meat the second part really speeds things up. (Last person raps the last part off the top anchor, of course).

    It helps to know how the canyon goes, to make speed. There is that vicious looking slot that is a fun downclimb and an awful rappel. People often rap that the first time through, which chews up a lot of time.

    Tom
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  15. gajslk

    gajslk

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    I like it. I've never been in a group larger than three where everyone was competent to set up a rap. But if I am ... this would be the ticket.
  16. Tom Collins

    Tom Collins

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    One other thing that seems to "Surprise" people is that they can move on before everyone is down and the rope has been pulled and stuffed back in the bag.
  17. Craig

    Craig Feeling My Way

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    Or, don't use the EDK. Maybe a double fisherman is more confidence inspiring. Either way, I'd only send down a single rappeler once the Stone knot was cleaned.
  18. Taylor

    Taylor

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    Have you been canyoneering with my friends?
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  19. Canyonero

    Canyonero

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    Spry is a four hour canyon for a quick group. There are currently about 11 hours of daylight. You could give yourself another one by doing the approach in the dark. You could even do the last 30 minutes after the final rappel in the dark by headlamp too without having to do anything particularly extreme.

    I'm not sure why you feel a need to further speed up the process. But that said, if you want, just set up two rap lines and have two rap at once. I've done that many times. Just tie them together with an EDK and on the side with the EDK on it, add a figure eight and clip it into the anchor. Then when LAPAR goes, have her pull the figure eight and rap both lines.

    But there is no strength issue here. I mean, you're only asking this anchor to hold 500 pounds of force at most and the rope is good for 4000-5000. Even if the strength is cut in half by the knot, you're still 4X your need.
  20. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Spry is a 14 minute canyon, if you are in good shape and your technique is polished. I don't know how incompetent people have to be to spend more than 20 minutes in there, though I usually do get a 45 second swim in once we hit Pine Creek (which I don't include in my timing).

    So whattaya gonna do in the Afternoon? I like doing Imlay in the afternoon, followed by Behunin, but some people like other canyons as a warm-down. A good challenge to get all three in before dark, this time of year.

    Tom
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
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