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Englestead Canyon

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Doug Smith, Jul 18, 2018.

  1. Doug Smith

    Doug Smith

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    Tom
    Thought the Anchors were going to be removed? This is as Ugly it gets and no good to anyone. I agree it's not needed but this is dumb. Then why not remove all the bolts in the wall on the first rappel. I counted 2 doubles and 5 or 6 singles that are not needed? DSC00185.JPG
    Tirrus likes this.
  2. gajslk

    gajslk

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    I like the 2-stage drop going in because there's no need to hump a long rope. Pair of 200s(full length, not shrunken) and you're good to go. That ledge is plenty big enough for two, so sequencing newbies down is quite reasonable. Last guy can pull the first rope and rig a pulldown. If you're not comfortable doing that, it's arguable that you need more practice before going in there ...
    Doug Smith and hank moon like this.
  3. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    The Wave bolts are essentially impossible to remove. I did the best I could. My apologies for not getting back in there and making them somewhat less obnoxious.

    The thousands of descents made of this canyon before the Wave Bolts were placed is clear evidence that these bolts were entirely unnecessary.

    The other bolts in the canyon (very few) serve a purpose.

    You may judge elsewise, if you wish.

    Tom
  4. Tirrus

    Tirrus Rope rider.

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    “Unfortunately, these Wave bolts are especially hard to remove, and clipping them left little barbs sticking out of the rock. I was unable to clean up the mess at this time, but will attempt to do so over the next year.”

    -Tom

    With that said, some of the wave bolts placed in this canyon seemed unnecessary. Though every single time I have descended this canyon there has been a stuck and cut rope at the crack rappel, and people bypass the last rappel. Perhaps we should find a balance.

    Also, I personally have cut myself on the sharp snaggle toothed bits of wavebolt left in Englestead, so maybe we should consider a clean up project to finish the job. Even if that means patching the sharp metal with epoxies, sand, and other materials to match the rock.
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  5. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    ALL the Wave Bolts placed in this canyon WERE unnecessary. Evidence: thousands of people descended this canyon without these bolts in place.

    You got that angle grinder?
  6. Tirrus

    Tirrus Rope rider.

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    I’m not arguing your definition of necessary. I’m saying we as a community should put the effort into evaluation and upkeep of these resources. And if that means bringing a hand file and overnight gear into Englestead, we should finish the job.

    I’m available the 15-17 of August if you are interested.
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  7. Morgan

    Morgan

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    I'm interested if you need any other helpers on those dates. I have a 300' rope and stay real close by on the Ponderosa.
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  8. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    I am away in Oregon in that time period. But please go to it. I personally like the epoxy putty P-11 (???).

    The steel on those wave bolts is top-notch... very hard. I tried banging those sharp ends down with a hammer, but it did not do much.

    (Incidentally, those are in a Wilderness Study Area, not in a Wilderness Area, so power tools are allowed.)

    Tom
  9. Bootboy

    Bootboy Atwood Gear

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    May Tackle it this weekend, power tools in hand, time permitting.
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  10. Scott Patterson

    Scott Patterson

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    Not to argue, but I don't think they are. Then again, technically neither are the bolts unless they could be an exception under section B. Here are the rules concerning WSA's:

    Rock climbing and caving will be allowed as long as these activities meet the nonimpairment criteria. The use of power driven (i.e. fuel or electric) rock drills or permanent anchors (e.g. bolts) is not allowed. No marring, scarring or defacing resulting in adverse impacts to the wilderness value of naturalness will be permitted, nor will permanent installations be permitted. Exceptions to the above may be allowed for: (a) emergencies, such as search and rescue operations; and (b) authorized actions needed for access travel within WSAs which are the minimum necessary for public health and safety in the use and enjoyment of the wilderness values. Any impacts from emergency actions (a, above), must be reclaimed to a substantially unnoticeable condition following the emergency situation.

    https://wilderness.org/sites/default/files/WSA_Manual_6330_v_IMP.pdf

    That said though, I don't think anyone is going to complain if power tools are used to clean up the bolts.
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  11. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    The document you cite is good, but it is from a radical anti-bolt organization, and therefore might leave a few things out. Besides which you included the old language that includes (b), which explicitly allows bolts (but not power tools). Unless you have looked it up, the new language probably also allows the occasional bolt, though not unnecessary ones.

    Tom
  12. Doug Smith

    Doug Smith

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    Judging by the response I'm not the only one that thinks more work is Needed. Ugly sharp edges need to be fixed at very least. If it's not done by next year my group will carry in some tool to do the Job.
  13. hank moon

    hank moon kinetically bulbous

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    The document seems to be from the BLM:

    https://edit.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/uploads/mediacenter_blmpolicymanual6330.pdf

    There's also this (re: designated Wilderness, not WSA) from 2007.

    I'm sure that permanent fixed anchors are (mostly) generally OK in wilderness (FS, NPS, BLM, FWS), but not sure about the WSAs, or the grinder. One would think WSA would be less restrictive. In any event, I see no harm in using power tools to finish the job in Dead Englishman, provided it's done with sufficient care - would be easy to mess up the rock even more with a grinder, I imagine (having never used one).
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