Agreed Tom. However some are really "Cairns" meaning that they are not dug into the sand. With the right sized stones and/or decent depression or small rise in the surrounding sandstone these work just as well. And they are much easier to inspect (much like a chokestone inspection.) And typically easier to rebuild not to mention that they can and often are built out of the watercourse. I am just saying that I like these better and have seen many instances where they would have worked as well or better than building a deadman in the watercourse. Granted these typically require larger and more rocks to build so there are some limitations there. What else am I missing? >Yeah, but... >a good deadman is made IN a depression, to take advantage of the geometry. These depressions are IN the watercourse. Ergo, deadmen are usually IN the watercourse. >They are not meant to be a permanent solution. They are meant to be temporary, and as such, will likely need to be replaced after every flow-event. You are entirely correct not to "trust them". Don't!. If you choose to use an in-place deadman, rebuild it from (below) the ground up, test and verify before the last person goes down. >Tom --- In <mailto:canyons%40yahoogroups.com> Yahoo Canyons Group, "Rick Pratt" <rpratt905@...> wrote: Which brings me to a question: Why are all these deadman anchors (and cairns as some really are) placed directly in the water flow. Would it not be more sesible to place these "off and up" to the side? Where only the larger rains would reach them? Or is it better to have the flowing rain water compact the soil around and over them? My brain says get them out of the flow of water if possible.