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Custodianeering

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by hank moon, Jun 10, 2013.

  1. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    @Preston Gable said: Out of Imlay 10-25-18:
    free pot shot and 5 pound lined glove along with bits of webbing, some hanging 6 ft up in a tree
    2018-10-25 16.33.47.
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  2. Ram

    Ram

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    I joined Tom, Katie and Rob, for a descent of Woody last March. After the cross country trip, to the head of the technical section, we found this sitting in the drainage.
    [​IMG]

    It was empty of gas , but still had an odor. I thought we would leave it. It was a long way out, through a physical, teamwork canyon and then several miles out the bottom. I underestimated the determination of the people I was with.
    Kate strapped it on her pack and the others took their turns with it and out the bottom, some 5 hours later, it went, and eventually into the trash. Kudos folks.
    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
  3. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Canyoneers - please clean up anchors when they need it. Such as:
    Anchor Fix 1.

    Anchor Fix 2.
    Scott Chandler and Tirrus like this.
  4. Eroni

    Eroni

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    Purgatory Canyon, Death Valley National Park. 12/13/2018
    Although a nice healthy pile of last years webbing should be expected at the end of a season's first run, this is probably double what it should have been from people leaving the old stuff. Also this wasn't the first run of the season.


    [​IMG]
    hank moon likes this.
  5. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    An Impressive Haul!
  6. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    A short canyon overlooking Kanab...

    Kanab Junk Jan 5 2019.
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  7. clangingsymbol01

    clangingsymbol01

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    Frist trip through Not Imlay for the season. Will post trip report as well for full canyon. This is mostly from the last rap.[​IMG]

    Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
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  8. K Arc

    K Arc

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    [​IMG]
    Junk pulled out of Dog Creek Canyon, Columbia River Gorge, WA. Exciting finds included a hat, some rock pro, carabiner that could no longer close, a sewn sling that someone had cut & then decided to tie back together, and a lone tire chain someone decided to use as a ladder.
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  9. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    WOW!
  10. hank moon

    hank moon kinetically bulbous

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    Nice haul - thank you.

    What is that?

    whut.
  11. Kuenn

    Kuenn

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    Junk.

    The offset suggests a stiff-step on an ascending system or weird style of aider step. Maybe even a handle for a bag, but the offset is suspicious.

    I hope they weren't rapping on the 3 strand twisted nylon. Would sure make for a nauseating experience - reminiscent of the old goldline days.
  12. NevadaSlots

    NevadaSlots

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    [​IMG]

    This is all just one anchor, namely the first rap of Walker Gulch.
    Also, some bolts have appeared in the lower Walker Gulch at the top of two minor and very manageable downclimbs both below the "3rd" and final rappel, no rapides or webbing just a hangar, tells me that people aren't really using them. I think that we can do better when it comes to bolting, not only talking about the issue of whether or not to bolt at all, cuz obviously these bolts don't belong, and its a shame they are there, but when the moment comes that a hole is drilled what hardware we are using. Around Zion, I've seen a lot of newly placed plated steel 3/8 wedge bolts (I guess they could be a sleeve bolt with a nut...doubt it) namely in Jacob, Spearhead, and Walker. From my view, these aren't bolts for sandstone, among other factors wedge bolts when tightened don't have that much contact with the rock and after repeated loading, over the years the hole will outgrow the bolt and it will render the bolt unsafe or at least sketchier. If you are going to place a bolt in sandstone use a sleeve bolt (like the Powers 5piece) preferably of the 1/2 inch variety and stainless steel. They are much easier to remove and replace and will last longer. Or even better install a well-done glue in bolt. Don't forget to include the washer that comes with many of the bolts,I've been noticing this as well, the washer will distribute the weight and make the bolt last longer and be stronger. I do have to give credit that these bolts have been placed well as far as location and flushness with the rock goes. As someone who really enjoys bolting, please do it in the right places for the right reasons, these are our wild places and they deserve to be left as pristine as possible while we still enjoy them. I suppose this is just one random guy's opinion, I don't know all the factors that are at play, just thought I'd say something.
    hank moon likes this.
  13. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Here is the picture that goes with that...

    Walker.
  14. Canyon Cleb

    Canyon Cleb

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    Hey there, I'm relatively new to the canyoneering community and have been pondering some ethical questions for awhile and I wanted to get some opinions from some people that have been around longer than myself and might have a better grasp on the ethics.

    With the development of ghosting techniques (sand trap, water trap, bluugnomes interesting jellyfish) where is the line drawn in terms of when things can be ghosted. Obviously ghosting is something that should only be done safely but in canyons where an obvious ghosting technique could be used, is it unethical to place webbing.

    I suppose my bigger question: Am I an ass for taking the webbing that someone placed where it can easily be ghosted?

    I find myself mostly in the robber's roost/north wash area (closet to me) and I think the best example of this is Hogwarts (a super over run canyon). Specifically at the third rappel. There is (what I think) a super obvious solution pocket that is almost a picture perfect example for a good use of a fiddlestick/smooth operator or a macrame. And although it seems obvious, every time I find myself running through that canyon as a last little romp before my weekend is over there is always webbing there. Now, the first couple times I ran through, I'm almost ashamed to admit, I took it. As a blossoming canyoneer I was giddy at the sight of free webbing and a rapide. My intention was that I could use this webbing to contribute to custodioneering other canyons in the area. Same thing goes for down-climbs. Often I find myself at a short easy down climb presented with an anchor and wonder, "why the hell is that there?" After similar encounters in other canyons some of my buddies starting giving me flack for it (rightfully so). I started to wonder what is the ethical thing to do?

    I believe you should never rely on a previous canyoneer to solve all the problems a canyon might present. Along with that, you should be prepared to face anything that comes your way (even in highly trafficked canyons). Although, my partner made a fairly strong counter argument. The sad reality of canyons like Hogwarts (and a lot of north wash) is that they are treated like a playground now. People go through canyons in this area relying on a previous cannyoneers work and are often under prepared (Simply having a rope of any kind,harness, and rappel device is enough). He then presented a scenario where I took the webbing and potentially strand an unprepared group.

    "Well that's not my fault. They should be prepared!!........well, actually, is that my fault?"

    Im not sure!!!! Maybe it falls into a discussion of ethics vs style.

    Curious what others in the community think about this. Hopefully this is a good thread for it or if it's not perhaps someone can help me find the right one.
  15. Scott Patterson

    Scott Patterson

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    The webbing should be left in place in trade route canyons, and especially beginner ones. Ghosting is an advanced technique, not a beginner one.
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  16. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    What he said, but allow me to expand on it.

    Removing established anchors in a traderoute/beginner canyon is a dick move. But there is a lot of grey area in that statement.

    What represents an established anchor? What routes are trade/beginner routes?

    It helps if you have done the canyon before, and have a good handle on which obstacles are rappels, easy downclimbs or hard downclimbs. It helps if you understand the traffic a canyon is getting both in quantity and in skill level.

    My personal guidelines are like this:

    A. webbing that is well-worn (though usable), redundant, brightly colored, and/or poorly rigged should be removed and replaced (perhaps) with good stuff well-rigged. It would be a big help if competent canyoneers did this on a regular basis, as a matter of habit. Beginners learn from the built form that is in canyons - if the built form is crap, they will learn that crap is acceptable.

    B. anchors on easy downclimbs should probably be removed. Easy downclimbs with dangerous exposure might be the exception.

    C. multiple anchors should be removed. Make a careful evaluation of the BEST anchor, and remove all the other ones.

    D. anchors on challenging downclimbs should probably be left (improved etc. even if YOU don't use them). Challenging downclimbs in challenging canyons do not need anchors... challenging downclimbs in trade/beginner canyons are called "rappels".

    Please note that more anchors appear in canyons over the winter, and sometimes show up in cold weather, because canyons have more rappels in winter/wet/cold conditions. They also have more rappels when it is dark out. So don't think the prior persons were numbskulls - they just decided to rappel there where you, with your mustached machismo and super duper skill set could easily downclimb it - its only 5.12!

    That's my PERSONAL guidelines...

    Tom
  17. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    It is good that we have beginner canyons, where beginners go. Keep them focused in a few canyons, and they will not be clogging up all the other canyons that are more-pristine. It also makes rescues easier if they require rescue in canyons the SAR team is familiar with, and that are close to the road. Please do not talk with resentment toward the people nor the canyons that fit in this category. They are doing us all a BIG favor, taking it on the chin to our benefit.

    Tom
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  18. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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  19. Canyon Cleb

    Canyon Cleb

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    Tom and Scott,

    I think those are some awesome guidelines. I think I've come to realize it's a total dick move for removing stuff in super popular 'beginner/trade' canyons. As
    much as I might be crotchety on the fact that I might be helping create a playground for less experienced people:moses:, you gotta start somewhere! And the reality is that people know about it and are going go do it, might as well make it safe for them. Lately it's been a fun game taking some jive-ass anchors and making them stellar for canyoneers to come. Something I'd be proud to take a photo of and frame.

    Also great points about SAR, I never would want to contribute to making their job any harder than it already is!

    Still working on the mustached part of mustached machismo and I'm always working the super duper skill set ;)

    Thanks you both for the insight! Stoked to hear some opinions from people far more experienced than myself. Always trying to learn!

    cheers
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  20. Tumbleweed

    Tumbleweed Drifting Along...

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    From a chockstone cleanup in Sam's Mesa Box Canyon a few weeks ago...I did keep a test piece of some super-fun webbing, perfect color for anyone rapping off rainbows :happy:
    -Brent
    Sam's Mesa Box Canyon-1. Sam's Mesa Box Canyon-2.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2020
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