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Creative Problem Solving 101-a-ii

Discussion in 'Tech Tips and Gear' started by ratagonia, Sep 2, 2017.

  1. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    As an aside on the 101-a problem:

    You have 4 x 120 foot ropes, and a 200 foot rappel in front of you. How do you get down and recover your gear... WAIT, that was the previous problem, in a nutshell.

    This problem is: you have 2 x 120 foot ropes, and you need to lower someone because they broke both hands. How do you do it?

    Tom
  2. gajslk

    gajslk

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    I see how to get down, but I don't see how to recover the ropes. Wait ... do we by chance have a hook handy? Or maybe a baby angle and a biner for building a self-releasing anchor? You go last, very dangerous. LOL

    Gordon
  3. wsbpress

    wsbpress

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    I'll take a stab at it.

    Join the two ropes and lower the injured companion on a munter hitch. When the knot gets close to the munter, transfer the load to a locked-off load-releasable friction hitch. Remove the first munter and rig another munter behind the knot, lock it off. Release the friction hitch and transfer the load to the new munter. Continue lowering.

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
  4. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Quite good, I think that would work. I have two easier versions of the same idea.

    T
  5. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    I think you are thinking of problem 101-a. This is problem 101-a-ii.
  6. gajslk

    gajslk

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    I know. Joking around.

    Gordon
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  7. Rob Schwarzmann

    Rob Schwarzmann

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    Tom,

    What are the physical stats of the person I am lowering?


    Rob
  8. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Median Adult US Male.

    T
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
  9. Kuenn

    Kuenn

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    Use one of those mega rapides that was mentioned a few days ago in BH and the knot might just pass right through. But as for the munter...

    Seriously though.
    Similar to what Brandon (wsbpress) described, the difference being to have the first munter (M1) attached to anchor with a LRH. When the EDK approaches M1 (could even let it block into it), tie in a second munter (M2, lock off or meat it) behind the EDK and then release the load of M1. The load is now transfered to M2. Continue lowering.

    (LRH=load releaseable hitch, EDK=European death knot - gotta love that name)
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  10. wsbpress

    wsbpress

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    I like that variation.

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  11. John Diener

    John Diener

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    Attach both a 120' and 2x120' (tied together) to the victim. Lower them on the 120', but also have the 2x120' rigged into a lowering setup _above_ the knot. This second rigging will take the weight of the victim just before the 120' runs out (drop that now free rope, assuming the victim is unable to disconnect from it; avoiding hitting person, or something like that). Finish lower on the 2x120'.
  12. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Excellent!

    (except in this scenario we have 2 x 120 ropes available)
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017
  13. Bootboy

    Bootboy Atwood Gear

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    My thoughts exactly, two lowers, two different lowering points so the weight can be transferred without a load release. Removing complexity tends to make things safer as you are reducing and removing points of mechanical and procedural failure.


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  14. redneckdan

    redneckdan Barely Domesticated...

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    Assuming 3 people including the vic and I have my normal kit.

    Send the first member down, they will unhook the vic.

    Rig the vic for lower.

    Munter on the first throw with a radium release. Lower for second throw prerigged but not attached.

    Lower vic on first throw, leave enough before the knot jams and dog the munter.

    Rig the lower for the second throw. Take the slack and dog the munter.

    Release the radium hitch and transfer to second munter. Diassemble first throw.

    Complete evolution with second throw.





    My thought with the double rope setup. I like it but:

    1) when you drop the rope it is coming right at the vic.

    2) the vic is now dragging an entanglement hazard with them (broke hands, probably can't unhook the rope and can't free a jam). If the vic gets jammed up, now most of the rope needed for a rescue is already allocated.
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  15. Canyonero

    Canyonero

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    Oooohh I like these so I'll play without reading the other responses.

    Assuming you need to lower someone 200 feet with two 120 foot ropes but somehow have enough gear to get yourself down afterward, it sounds like there's going to have to be a knot passed while lowering. So you tie the two ropes together and lower out the first 120 feet until a knot hits the belay device. You already have a second device attached to the anchor above the knot to continue the lowering. The only difficulty is detaching the weighted device from the anchor. This is easily accomplished using standard mechanical advantage techniques such as 3:1 or worst case scenario a 9:1 pulley system.

    In the real world, there's often a ledge or even a few small holds where the guy being lowered can unweight the rope enough to undo the lower belay device. This sort of trick is done all the time by climbers top-roping something taller than half their rope length.

    As I think about it, maybe a better solution is simply attach the lower device to the anchor using a munter-mule or other releasable anchor, eliminating the need for mechanical advantage.

    Now let's see what everyone else said.
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  16. Canyonero

    Canyonero

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    I didn't realize we had a third rope, I was kind of thinking two 120s and a pull cord. Sure, if we have a third rope this is a great solution, but getting the lengths just right THE FIRST TIME might be a little tricky. I think I still like the set up with a munter mule securing the device on the lower rope.
  17. Kuenn

    Kuenn

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    Wait a cotton-picking second, aren't these the resources? Don't go changing the rules mid-game.

    Otherwise my solution could have included constructing a large wooden rabbit.
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2017
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  18. Andrew J Farrow

    Andrew J Farrow

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    ok - i will bite :

    tie both ropes together

    rig the " upper " rope as a lowerable and put someone on the " bottom rope " just below the join - with a decender - and attach the casualty to them

    lower the pair off the " upper rope " - for 100 feet - and lock off - the attendent now abseils to the floor with casualty

    not enough info to figure out how to get the rest of team down - can the ropes be abandoned ?
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  19. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    That's the point of the OTHER Creative Problem Solving 101-a.
  20. clangingsymbol

    clangingsymbol

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    I love this idea for a set of threads! Keep it coming.

    As for my input:

    1. Become friends with Tom Jones
    2. Get invited on this (and all other Tom Jones) trips
    3. Don't be the victim (most important point here for me...sorry to my canyon friends...anybody want to do trips with me now!!!???)
    4. Watch, help, learn!!!

    My thoughts were inline with tying the victim to the end of the second rope (tied to the first). Belay them until the knot is at your device, with the device on you and you tied to the anchor. (Dont forget to set up something that will help keep the victim upright during the descent with little effort on their part since they won't have working hands). Complete the transfer to a second rope (I was thinking a device tied directly into the anchor which would allow you to put victims weight on the second rope while getting off the first), disconnect from the second rope and continue to lower them to the ground.

    Now, you start to problem solve the rest of the canyon (for rope management) form there. If the only raps left can be managed with the two 120s (which is hopefully the case since that is all you brought or have left at this point), you can leave a healthy person at the top of the rap to release the rope and you continue down with the victim to get them medical attention as quickly as possible, sending a rescue party back for the abandoned partner.

    There are things you can consider about extending the anchor with the extra webbing you also carry. Can you get it far enough to allow for a double rope with the 120s you have left, allowing the last man to rap to the end of the extended webbing and then set up the rest of the rap from there? Lots of potential options depending on what the rest of the canyon looks like. If you can complete the canyon with one rope and don't have the webbing needed, do the same thing on this rap with one rope "extending the anchor" and then set the second up as double rope, pull and complete the canyon. It all depends on the rest of the canyon.

    If the rest of the canyon requires both ropes, then you must start to think about leaving the victim in the canyon with as much as possible for them to survive the night (if that is the reality, including a buddy if possible). Complete the canyon and figure out what to do for rescue (call for help, grab the extra ropes from the truck and descend again to rescue, etc). Tom did not say you had to get them down now...you just have to figure out how to eventually get them out alive!!!

    I love this. One thing I think about when reading about misses, SAR events, etc, what would I do in that situation? Then, when I have an answer, I ask, what if I don't have "x" equipment? Now what? Do that a few times and you start to have some thoughts ready if it ever happens to you! This is the same thing. Thanks for encouraging the thought process ratagonia!!!
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