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Discussion in 'Tech Tips and Gear' started by Deagol, Oct 8, 2013.
If there must be bolts, glue-ins all the way for this very reason.
Ah hah, that is probably what occurred as the bolts were setup this way. Thanks for pointing it out. Good to keep in mind...
Periodically, I like to bring back this wonderful quote by Stevee Brezovec. He did not always feel this way. His experience and experiences led him to this viewpoint..
Please don't vandalize canyons that lie above your skill level. You may want to experience them in their undamaged state someday. They will always be there and you have plenty of time. It's not about ego or risk, it's about humility and respect.
Agreed. But if the bolts are crappy enough to need equalizing, what are the odds that either will hold if the other blows?At least with the upward Stone variation, there's a bit of friction in the system. It would be interesting to see how much, and how fast and hard you'd hit the other anchor if one fails.
that happened to me on a sport climb, once...fortunately there was enough rope to re-lead and recover
Agreed. This was done long before I started using a Fiddlestick/Smooth Operator. Like I said, I wouldn't rig this way anymore.
Also RE Ram's post: Those bolts were not placed by me (I've never placed a bolt anywhere) but were pretty old and had been there a while.
a minor update that sort of came from a thread about tensioning a Tyrolean traverse:
I was bored and experimented with setting up a guided rappel from a solid anchor (large tree) to another one.
The point of this was to practice, but to also see if it could be done 100% retrievable. I used "The Buckle" (referenced earlier in this thread) since it seemed a better option for the top anchor since it is retrievable and allows one to set a rapide/block combo like a normal webbing loop, unlike a Fiddlestick type setup. The buckle isn't anywhere near as easy to setup as a Fiddlestick, but IMO works better for this specific situation (if a stick would even work at all ?).
I set the buckle up using a rapide and set the block at approximately the midpoint of the rope and
rapped down the other end that was held by the block and crossed the imaginary obstacle at the bottom of the drop and anchored to a solid feature. I used the Totem in plaquette (aka progress capture) mode to tension the rope I rapped on. This rope became the guide strand. I used a prussic & Sheave to tension the rope enough (but not too much) and safety-ed it off. The Buckle gets locked into a strong non-releasable configuration by the tension applied to the guide line. I went back to the top to do a few things that could easily be done by LAPAR: attached pull cord to Buckle and tossed to bottom anchor. I rapped a second time, this time using either a Sheave or Microtraxion on the guide line and the blocked end of the rope as the rappel strand. Everything was solid. At the bottom, it was a simple matter of releasing the tension on the guide strand and then pulling the retrieval cord for the Buckle. The webbing comes down easy if set up correctly. I then pulled the actual rope from the guide end so that the rapide that attached it to the Buckle webbing would not come off the end of the rope (it's held on by the biner block). Just stuff both the cord and the rope and undo the anchor and it was done. Much easier and simpler than it sounds here.
I've never seen a guided rappel setup that doesn't involve leaving something at the top (but maybe one does exist?). You can add additional safety to The Buckle by securing the loose tail and can also safety the rap strand off on something besides the rapide/block for all but LAPAR.
Assuming the rap could be done with a fiddlestick without leaving anything behind (natural anchor exists and you don't have to build a deadman with webbing) why not use two fiddlestick and 3 ropes. 1 to rap, 1 as guideline, 1 to pull both fiddlesticks.
I couldn't imagine wanting to guide rap off a sandtrap or potshot (that can be rotated out of a jam) but why not fix two lines to a bomber sandtrap (ha!) or potshot and have a release line.
What about loops off natural horns that you can flick the rope off? With the right geometry you could just have one rope with a stein knot-though now we're getting pretty silly.
This stuff is hard to describe/visualize without pictures, so I am doing my best to visualize your setup and I think I can see it. I guess it could work. It seems actually a tad more complicated than the one I described, but they both leave nothing behind. 6 of one a half-dozen of the other?
The setup I tested relies on a good anchor such as a nice tree or rock. I've never used a Sandtrap before.
RE the Stein knot on a rock feature: It seems to me that if you fiddled that and used one rope, than you would still have to pull a long length of rope back around that feature for retrieval and the benefits would diminish.
This all may be just academic, but it's good practice.
Here is some test data on the Fiddlestick/Smooth Operator: http://rope-work-101.wikidot.com/andrew-wiegs-testing and here is where you can download a print of the Fiddlestick that was tested: http://rope-work-101.wikidot.com/fiddlestick.
That is very cool! Amazing how the rope squished that FiddleStick!
Nice thread, Deagol!
Luke has more comprehensive test results on his Smooth Operator.
But, here is one tensile test result: the rope broke at 3,350 lbs (typical strength reduction at a knot).
The lexan distorted but did NOT rupture.
I am guessing that under EXTREME load with the new 'dual point' stone knot configurations that the Smooth Operator will "fold up" but not cause catastrophic failure.
What is that? Please essplain
Boot Boy's Y knot
Sometimes it works really well, sometimes it works OK, sometimes it does not work at all and the rope gets stuck. The last can be avoided by doing test pulls.