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Creative anchor solutions

Discussion in 'Tech Tips and Gear' started by Deagol, Oct 8, 2013.

  1. Pikan

    Pikan

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    right...okay yeah i need to clarify.
    My pencil test was done using a single anchor point (a HUGE rapid link hanging from the ceiling of my garage), so no "Y" configuration. I think that should help clarify things! :) I have yet to test or try out either "Y" configuration, but plan to on our practice cliff.
    (also I need to point out that I was using a brand new ICG canyonero rope, and my fiddle stick is also the smooth operator variant but I made mine quite a bit longer than the one spec'ed on the bluugnome site)
    we are in agreement about the two different "Y" configurations I think though. The added stress on the fiddle stick in Bootboy's method is reduced by the butterfly knot and rapide method. :)
  2. Deagol

    Deagol too many hobbies

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    another thing to notice if tested:
    If using Bootboy's version: how much harder would the Fiddlestick be to pull after weighted multiple times by folks on rappel?
    Would there be a difference in pull force needed to pull out the stick? If so, is this a good thing? It could be an extra measure of safety? Or, would it become too hard to remove from the "modified" stone knot?

    Also, in Bootboy's method, if one of the anchors failed, would the loop attached to that anchor maintain it's configuration? Or would it slip somehow?
    The "Y-knot" method would probably shock-load the remaining anchor if one of them failed (I don't see how to avoid this and still maintain the equalization and releasableity).

    The chance of an anchor failure may not be huge, but still good to keep in mind. Lots of things to test and refine...
  3. Bootboy

    Bootboy Atwood Gear

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    I think this is getting way over thunk...
  4. Deagol

    Deagol too many hobbies

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    Hey, I'm at work... need to find some way to occupy my mind... :p
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  5. Blake Merrell

    Blake Merrell Lovin' Utah's Backcountry

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    X2 :twothumbs:
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  6. Blake Merrell

    Blake Merrell Lovin' Utah's Backcountry

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    Im not sure how ANY idea regarding the safety of your life can be over thunk. :disagree:
  7. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    I know for me, I am better when I think. When I "overthink", I get stupider.

    Tom
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  8. Bootboy

    Bootboy Atwood Gear

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    Amen.

    The more you over think things, the more complicated they tend to get. More steps means a higher probability that something will be missed.

    Thinking is fine when it leads to greater simplicity. OVER thinking is unfortunately more common and leads to complication and is self defeating.
  9. Deagol

    Deagol too many hobbies

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    Thinking about the stone knot possibly seizing up with that extra loop doesn't seem like "overthinking it" to me, but, again, I have not had the chance to test this in the field. I've asked a few times in this thread if anyone HAS tested it in the field, but no response.

    I would rather "overthink" it here in the office and have that be overkill, than have an "Oh $*!t" moment either during rappel or during rope-pull. What tests I have been able to do seem to indicate that it sticking would not be an issue, but it seemed an easy thing to ask folks who may have had the opportunity to try this in the field (I would think that anyone posting a suggestion on a technique would have tried it in the field prior to suggesting it).

    One thing I've experienced is doing things in the field tends to bring unforeseen problems to light with processes that work fine "in the garage".

    YMMV..
  10. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    This thread seems to me to be a lot of overthinking.

    We have a knot for the FiddleStick that works, and has been used on a thousand or more rappels, is easy to tie etc. But hey, shouldn't we find a new knot because... ??? I'm still wondering what the because is.

    Tom
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  11. Blake Merrell

    Blake Merrell Lovin' Utah's Backcountry

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    Interesting, I though the thread was created to help stimulate conversation about creative anchor solutions, and the result of the thread spawned some very interesting ideas on how to use the fiddle stick AS CREATIVE ANCHOR SOLUTIONS! all of this "OVER THINKING" has really been kinda cool. It is neat to see how the Fiddle Stick and stone knot can be used to rig different kinds of anchors. I don't think and new knots have been discovered, but I have learned about way to use a fiddle stick with two different anchor points. to me that is pretty cool!

    I think attitudes and comments that try and limit peoples creativity (as seen in this kind of statement: "We have a knot for the FiddleStick that works, and has been used on a thousand or more rappels, is easy to tie etc. But hey, shouldn't we find a new knot because... ??? I'm still wondering what the because is.") is a huge problem! Yeah I agree that the fiddle stick has worked 1000's of times before without fail. But does that mean we have to stop trying to figure out how to integrate it into new systems?

    What I see in these two anchor solutions is amazing! were people over thinking things? maybe, but the results have been pretty cool IMHO. lets stop trying to stifle creativity and try and help encourage it!


  12. Deagol

    Deagol too many hobbies

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    Tom,

    This thread has done exactly what it was supposed to do: encourage creative thinking

    To clarify: the "Y-knot" isn't a knot, per se, but just a name to represent an idea that combines the stone knot with a way to equalize two anchors. It was a play-on-words (why not?) used instead of typing out a ridiculously long name for this concept.

    It wasn't intended to replace a stone knot or Fiddlestick- in fact, it depends on them.

    Bootboy came up with a simpler way to accomplish the same thing: it is still a stone knot, but with an extra loop, right?

    For the record, I went into the backyard just now and did the best "test" I could on Bootboy's solution on a large tree, and all my concerns were addressed.

    Each loop holds separately and would not slide through the knot if the anchor point failed. Much better than the "Y-knot" concept.

    Also, under weight (at least my body weight) Bootboy's version did not bind up. The "Y-knot" was just an idea, and that idea has now been replaced by (Bootboy's) better idea. So, I never used the "Y-knot" in the field and now that Bootboy's setup seems superior in every way, I probably never will. Had no one "overthunk" the existing known solutions, would we still have learned of this new useful technique? Isn't that how the Fiddlestick and Sandtrap came to be in the first place?

    This is just one more way to use a Fiddlestick or Smooth Operator and addresses an issue that has, so far, not been addressed in anything I've seen: equalization.

    So, we could ask Why not the "Y-knot", but now we know why not (for Dr. Seuss fans out there).
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  13. Mountaineer

    Mountaineer Is that an X slot?

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    Not only does the forum act as a community, but I hope it continues as an area to explore ideas (for some new, others old). However it would be a disservice if some see problems or mistakes not to say anything. Far better to explore here together, then alone in the field.

    I know of good people who have stopped posting and visiting some forums due to ridicule. Tragic, as those people have so much to offer.

    Have courage, thick skin, don't be shy. It is OK to explore ideas (maybe again and again), and hope if you are wrong others will volunteer a bit of their time to say why...and OK to have some fun along the way. :thumbsup:
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  14. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Uh, well... two sentences of comment. on the B..... scale, hardly noticeable.

    I am fond of discussion and throwing ideas out etc. Just wanted to point out that the current upward stone knot for the FiddleStick has been proven EXTENSIVELY in the field. Sure there might be a better knot out there for that, but really, it meets most of the criteria pretty well. Heck, even Ram can do it!

    Tom
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  15. Deagol

    Deagol too many hobbies

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    but these new riggings DO use the upward overhand stone knot !!???
    :confused:
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  16. Deagol

    Deagol too many hobbies

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    not really an update, but I got back from a canyon trip to the Moab area and was able to use the Smooth Operator on numerous occasions, although never had the need to use it in a "Y" type configuration Bootboy suggested.
    The anchor worked very well and I am quite pleased with it.

    If anyone finds a black Motorola walkie talkie along Granary, please PM me..
  17. Blake Merrell

    Blake Merrell Lovin' Utah's Backcountry

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    I thought it was YOU Deagol who suggest the "Y" setup with the Fiddlestick? o_O

    I imagine the only time one would consider using it in the "Y" configuration is if they had 2-3 "weak" natural anchor features that they wanted to use to make one strong one.
  18. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

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    Discussion above still reminds me of this:

    Whymper 1872.JPG
  19. Deagol

    Deagol too many hobbies

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    Yeah, I had the initial post about the "Y-knot" as we called it. But Bootboy had a better (simpler) "Y" type setup, so I gave up on the method I was looking into and adopted his method instead.

    And, yes, the other point is exactly why I was thinking about the "Y" in the first place. It was actually to use 2 bolts in a situation where there are only bolts (no webbing/rapide). This was the situation I encountered in Dragonfly a few years ago.
  20. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    It seems odd to worry about not leaving webbing on two bolts.

    Tom
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