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climbing harness vs canyoning harness

Discussion in 'Tech Tips and Gear' started by hamid2010, Dec 11, 2018.

  1. hamid2010

    hamid2010

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    Hi friends
    I have a question :
    what is Advantages and Disadvantages using a climbing harness ( for example Petzl Corax ) with a canyoning pad, instead of canyoning harness ( for example Petzl Canyon ) ???
    what do you think ?
  2. TJ Cottam

    TJ Cottam Adventure Plus

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    The biggest advantages of canyoneering harnesses are:
    - Horizontal tie in point that keeps the rappel device oriented correctly
    - Durability, they are just built to take more abuse than climbing harnesses
    - Covered gear loops. Most canyon harnesses have a protector over each gear loop. The Corax you mentioned has a hard gear loop covered with material that tends to wear out much more quickly

    Climbing harness advantages
    - cheap, until you buy a seat to add on. Then they are about the same.

    I've been a big fan of the Edelrid canyon harnesses personally.
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  3. hamid2010

    hamid2010

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    Thank you
  4. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    And here is a contrary opinion:

    Climbing Harness Pros

    1. They actually fit. They come in many sizes, rather than one or two, so you can get one that fits you even if you do not fit the Euro-manufacturers's fit model. Which many of us don't. The Euro fit model includes wearing a wetsuit, so a Canyon harness need not concentrate on padding or comfort.

    1a. Because they fit better, they work better in the field especially when doing climbing type stuff - as we often do here in Colorado Plateau canyons. If you are mostly doing waterfall canyons, and wearing a wetsuit, it is less of an advantage.

    2. They are inexpensive. The climbing market is very competitive, which holds prices down. 60$ will get you a good adjustable leg loop harness - add 33$ for a Scuttlebutt, you are at 93$. Much less expensive than most Canyon harnii.

    3. The gear loops suck, usually, but if you buy it from me I replace the gear loops with better ones for free.

    Riposte to TJ's claims

    4. The orientation of the clip in point is rather a small point. I add a small locking carabiner to my belay loop, and that re-orients my device, and extends it about 4", which has proven to be just fine.

    5. Durability - well... he has a point. Also, my Scuttlebutt seats are not as durable as the seats that come on European brands (better fabric), so the Scuttlebutt seat will need to be replaced more often than a Euro seat. The simple webbing harnesses tend to be more durable than the lighter, less-bulky, more fitted climbing harnesses, even with the seat on it protecting the leg loops.

    6. The plastic tubing on the gear loops of SOME euro harnesses are so fat that small carabiners are difficult to clip to the loop. Size matters... too big is too big.

    7. The Petzl Canyon to me seems to be the worst of the euro harnesses, and is very expensive.

    Tom
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  5. hamid2010

    hamid2010

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    Thank a lot for your comment and there is some more question :
    1- what is the climbing harness disadvantage ?
    2- what do you think about (Black Diamond Big Gun harness + canyoning pad) for canyoning ?
    3- which climbing harness is best choice for adding a pad and use it for canyoning ?
    4- In your Idea Petzl Canyon is worst of the euro harnesses so which canyoning harness is best ? and why ?
  6. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Climbing harnesses are less durable.
    Using a Canyon harness identifies you to your peers as a hard-core waterfall Class C badass canyoner!!! Dhude!
    If you sport a rock climbing harness, then you are probably just a rock climber who got lost while driving across Utah.

    The Big Gun is a specialized harness for hanging in the harness for hours on end. You give up one of the advantages of a climbing harness if you go to the Big Gun - mobility. Also, the Imlay Scuttlebutt does not fit over the Big Gun harness.

    Putting it another way, why would you do that? For canyoning, you do not need to prioritize hang-time comfort. You are only hanging in the harness for a minute at a time. More important is comfort while walking, moderate bulk and weight, etc. which you will find with a wide variety of 60$ to 80$ climbing harnesses.

    Seat. You are adding a seat - calling it a pad is misleading.

    Best Choice: a harness that fits you. I sell the Singing Rock Versa, but there are many harnesses out there that are pretty good. If you want to add a seat, the leg loops need to open fully, so that limits your choices. And the gear loops often suck...

    The Petzl Canyon to me is exemplary in the attributes that I dislike. It is huge and bulky. It is one size fits whomever, good luck. The gear loops are too fat for some of the biners I use. And it is exorbitantly expensive, though some of the harnesses on the Adventure Plus store are even MORE expensive.

    I have no positive experiences with this kind of harness. Perhaps people that like these harnesses could chime in on their preferences. TJ likes the Edelrid canyon harnesses.

    Tom
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  7. Norb

    Norb

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    My 2 cents....After 3-4 years of using a Petzl Canyon, I've switched to exclusively using my caving harness for both caving and canyoneering. Much more durable, way cheaper and more comfy(for me)....Probably becuase I can actually get it to fit properly. I like the GGG Caver seat harness($60) with an Autolocking D-Link.
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  8. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    My prejudice is that caving harnesses have a low clip in point that make basic rappelling more difficult and potentially dangerous. From the pictures on the GGG site, this seems to be the case with this harness. Do you find that a problem, or do you include an upper-body harness (or something else) to mitigate that effect.

    (Just saying, a caver seat harness is (again) a specialized piece of gear that requires expert knowledge to use safely.)

    Tom
  9. hamid2010

    hamid2010

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    Seat. You are adding a seat - calling it a pad is misleading.
    Sorry for my poor English skill .

    Best choice :
    As you said before " climbing harness produced in several size " so i can find my fit size in many brands . but according to your experience which harness is better for adding a seat ? ( consider the gear loop and give me few models in several brands please )

    Thanks so much
  10. hamid2010

    hamid2010

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    Thanks
  11. Norb

    Norb

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    Nope....I've never found that to be a problem, even with a heavy pack(the times I haven't hung my pack). I've also never used an upper body harness for rappelling..
  12. hamid2010

    hamid2010

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    Thanks for your comment
    why climbing harness gear loops often suck ? what is their problem ?
  13. Andrew J Farrow

    Andrew J Farrow

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    err - why ????????????

    i do concede that a cave sit harness comes with the warning - that a sutible chest harness must be worn with it - but having said that - i believe its just manufactures paranoid CYA

    but low attachment point = potential danger - no just NO

    thousands of cavers use a variety of cave harnesses across europe - every wheek - with no problems

    cavers want low attachment - because it permits better asscending efficiency [ bit thats another issue ]
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  14. TJ Cottam

    TJ Cottam Adventure Plus

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    They are fragile.
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  15. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    It seems that climbers these days don't touch the rock with anything other than their toes, fingertips and the occasional knee. The gear loops on some Petzl and Singing Rock harnesses are a thin "rope sheath" over a plastic tube. These gear loops last for me about 3 canyons before they abrade through and fail. I have the good fortune of having a burly sewing machine and can put new sturdy gear loops on the harnesses I sell before they go out the door.

    There are climbing harnesses with sturdy gear loops. They just don't happen to be the ones I have access to (at wholesale) and/or otherwise make sense to me.

    Tom
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  16. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

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    I guess a few of the gals are "in touch" with the rock...ha ha...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=Z4zv894cBRA



    A few climbing harnesses have durable gear loops:

    https://www.metoliusclimbing.com/safe-tech_mens_deluxe.html

    Yates Shield.

    I pick up the BD Momentum harnesses on sale.

    https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/web-specials/momentum-harness-BD651068_cfg.html

    Yeah, they wear out quickly. Sometimes some freesole on the high wear spots will extend their life.

    I still like the design of the Bod harness:

    https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/bod-harness-BD650020_cfg.html#start=13

    Cut the fleece padding out. Toss a bit of freesole on the backstraps and back of the leg loops.

    A scuttlebutt to fit would be the cat's meow. Or the bee's knees.
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  17. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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  18. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    A few special gals are "getting 'er done"

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  19. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

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    Current model is a fairly beat Momentum. Both for canyons and climbing (three different harnesses...canyon, rock and ice all set up for the different nuances for each sport).

    Whatever's on sale that sorta fits...ha ha.

    I think my gym harness (a Mammut) is older than most of the climbers in the gym...they made 'em burly back in the day.

    Hmm. Market seems ripe for a canyoneering specific 'Merican made harness. Seem to recall we know someone who knows their way around harnesses...hmm.

    At north of a benji, might be worth for someone to jump in...
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  20. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    I have thought of teaming up with Misty or someone, but I sell about 10 harnesses a year as it is... thus I have no hard evidence that such a product would be successful.

    T
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