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Canyon Fire or Canyonero?

Discussion in 'Tech Tips and Gear' started by Naysan Sahba, Jan 28, 2017.

  1. Naysan Sahba

    Naysan Sahba

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    Hey everybody,

    I have been rock climbing for a pretty long time but I am pretty new to technical canyoneering and I am looking to buy my first rope. I've heard a lot of good things about Imlay ropes but I don't know if I should get the 8.3mm Canyon Fire or the 9.2mm Canyonero. I'm a pretty small guy (130lbs) so I was wondering if I would get stuck if I rappelled with a double strand of the Canyonero. Anyway, what do you guys think would be best considering my weight and the fact that I'll probably be rappelling double stranded through a figure-8 for a while? Also, how much rope should I buy just to start with?

    Thanks in Advance!
    Ram likes this.
  2. John Styrnol

    John Styrnol

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    Both ropes are very nice, and worth the price. I have a 120' of Canyonero, and 200' of the Canyon Fire. These two lengths are very common in canyoneering in Utah. You should be fine also with both lengths of the Canyon Fire, if you choose to do so. Don't forget rope bags, very nice to have for rope management. As to the stuck part, I cannot say, but at 130 lbs, you might have problems and will have to feed the rope out at the start of a rap. How you set up your device will also have a play in friction. The 8mm would be quicker, but you also have to take into consideration the other people in the group.
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2017
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  3. LonePeak

    LonePeak

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    Good news for you: you won't need to carry nearly that much rope weight through the canyon. Single stranded Canyon Fire 8.3 is plenty robust for the mainstream crowd, and you're much lighter than many that use it. We're not taking falls, so we can get away with much less rope than climbers, but we have to haul it farther. Just carry a much lighter pull cord (like Amsteel 1/8" or something more robust up to 5 or 6mm, not paracord) and do a triple clove hitch biner block, and your legs will thank you. Static is important. Imlay makes robust sheaths, but to make the rope last, everyone should try not to shift it along the rock while rappelling.

    80-120 & 200' lengths are each nice to have. I'm most interested in about 50 canyons that require only 120' and 45 more that require 200', and less that a dozen that require longer. 165' would cover 3/4 of those interests altogether. Preferences may change with experience.
  4. LonePeak

    LonePeak

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    How much weight and bulk savings? Over 50% from 9mm DRT!

    Edit: 50% is correct, not 60%. Comparing Canyon Fire SRT + Amsteel 1/8" To Canyonero DRT
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2017
  5. LonePeak

    LonePeak

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    And the CRITR2 or Mini 8 or something else with ears for friction adjustment are definitely worth it!
  6. hank moon

    hank moon lovely ligatures

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    Last edited: Jan 29, 2017
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  7. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

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    I think it kinda depends on what type of canyons and rock type. Moving water? Dry canyons? Limestone, sandstone, granite?

    Also, as a climber, what device to you rappel on?

    I think the most useful length to start with is 60m (200 feet).
  8. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

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    Trying to understand the statements above...

    As a canyoneer, I probably have about as much rope devoted to that sport as I do climbing (primary use ropes, not old worn out stuff).

    I'd guess most climbers have a single 60 or 70m rope that they use until its fairly worn out. If they alpine climb or ice climb, they may have a set of doubles or twins.

    As a canyoneer, I have 4 60m cords. Also a couple well over 60m (the ones I'd take for Heaps or Birch Creek in Zion for instance).

    I don't find one sport requires more or less cord than the other...avid canyoneers will have as many ropes as an avid climber IMHO.

    A lot of climbers climb at great distances from a trailhead...so, not sure canyoneers typically haul rope further than climbers (I'd say not, given how many folks climb in remote ranges of the world compared to canyoneers).

    If you have a primary rappel line, and, it gets compromised (stuck or cut), having to rely on a 1/8" or 5mm rope might not be great as a back up.

    And, "shifting" (or slipping) the rope while rappelling is commonly done to prevent a single spot in the rope getting worn out.
  9. LonePeak

    LonePeak

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    @Brian in SLC
    By less rope I mean smaller diameter. And we often haul it farther. DRT or a committed, robust pull cord don't of themselves provide a backup rope either. When I mentioned shifting rope along the rock mid rappel, I'm of course referring to beginners sawing it against the rock because they didn't choose a direct line, not the good practice of changing the rub points between raps.

    Of course there are occasions when it's convenient to go double stranded (DRT) on a shorter rap. Since you're concerned about going slow as a light person, the CRITR2 would be a better descender than the Mini 8, and you may find Imlay ropes to be a bit slow. They're more nubby than a higher plait sheath. But you should still be ok with Canyon Fire single.
  10. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

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    Ahh. Gotcha. Thanks. Yeah, single lead ropes for climbers seem to range from 10mm down to 8.4mm, give or take. Bigger diameter typically, unless you're canyoning in Europe. Seems like the common rope diameter over there for canyons with water flow is 10mm.

    Situation dependent.

    [QUOTE="LonePeak, post: 103671, member: 8234]And we often haul it farther.[/QUOTE]

    And...you often don't...say, rappelling Rocky Mouth versus climbing at your avatar (Lone Peak).

    Ditto the above. Situation dependent.

    Welcome to the new member! Where will you be doing most of your canyoneering?
  11. Naysan Sahba

    Naysan Sahba

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    For rock climbing generally use a ATC Belay. Sometimes if I am with a friend who owns a grigri I will use that. But for canyoneering, I found neither of those work very well so I just use a figure 8.
  12. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    And once again, when mixing beasts from different menageries, in this case, the marketing department's stated diameter is not a good indication of "bigness" of the rope. Imlay ropes (specifically) are tightly woven and denser than noodly climbing ropes. Let's run some numbers:

    Imlay Canyon Fire 8.3mm diameter 58.3 grams per meter [density of 1.077 grams per cubic cm] [78.6% packing density]

    Mammut Eternity 9.8mm diameter 64 grams per meter [density of 0.849 grams per cubic cm] [73.8% packing density]

    Canyon Fire 26.8% denser than Mammut Eternity climbing rope, by weight.
    Polyester density = 1.37 g/cm cubed. Nylon = 1.15 g/cm cubed.
    Canyon Fire 6.5% denser by volume...

    Darn it. I hate it when I run the numbers and they contradict a long-held belief. :moses: So yes, Polyester canyoneering rope IS physically denser than a soft noodly climbing rope, but not by very much.

    Tom :moses:

    p.s. then again, we do not know the ACTUAL diameter of the ropes, only the stated. I know my Imlay ropes state the diameter under tension on the weaving machine, which is probably the smallest number one could realistically attach to that particular rope. I do not know how other marketing departments decide how to state the diameter of a particular model of rope.
  13. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

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    We have always suspected you were kinda dense, Tom...uhhh, I mean that your ropes are....ha ha.

    So, my 38g/m Mammut twilight twins are a fair bit lighter...they also double (pun intended, sorta) as a pillow for backcountry camping.

    Hopefully that heavier weight means a more durable construction for you canyon ropes. Given their stiffness I'd think so!

    Yeah, I wouldn't think a Gri Gri would be that useful for canyoneering rappels. But, that predictable friction device, the ATC...now...hmm. I'd rather use one of those than a figure eight (personal preference).

    My guess is that even though someone has been "rock climbing for a pretty long time" that doesn't necessarily translate to having done that much rappelling on climbing ropes? I think most of us gave up on using figure eights for belaying/rappelling back in the late 80's/early 90's... Careful doing a long free hanging rappel with a figure eight...(a friend nearly passed out from spinning wildly on that last rappel out of Heaps in Zion).

    Single pitch clip-and-lower sports climbing? That's ok. Not much shame in that...(ha ha). Just kiddin'...
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