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Bolt hole patch opinion

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by Luke, Dec 1, 2012.

  1. Luke

    Luke Guest

    Thanks for the input. Yup I am headed down a path similar to that. No worries on ACA contributing I think those of us going are all self motivated on this one. Thank you for the offer!



    Luke



    From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of rich_rudow Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 3:12 PM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Bolt hole patch opinion





    Hi Luke, thanks for taking the lead on removing the bolts in DV. I would encourage you to check in with the appropriate NPS land manager first just so they know that the canyoning community is willing, ready, and able to police itself. You might see if Abby Snow can direct you to the correct DV NPS contact person.

    It's a shame when people get heavy handed in these wonderful places and potentially ruin access for the rest of us. However, in general, I've found the land managers are "less upset" when we take responsibility for the problem and fix it without requiring an expenditure of Government resources. Let me know if we (American Canyoneers) can help in some way with tools, resources, gas money, whatever ... to make this right. Huge props for stepping up.

    Thanks,

    Rich (wearing my American Canyoneers access board member hat)

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group <mailto:canyons%40yahoogroups.com> , Luke Galyan <luke@...> wrote:
    I agree. Â Time of working on it becomes the issue........... Â Lets talk more in person again. Â :) > Luke
    > You can rent the space inside my mind ..... at least until the price becomes too high. > Sent from my phone....... forgive the typos.
    > -------- Original message -------- > From: Mike Schasch <mikeschasch@...
    Date: > To: Yahoo Canyons Group <mailto:canyons%40yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Bolt hole patch opinion
    So this to me is another example of the way beta is presented. (Luke you've heard this all before and we've even worked on it). There are many folks that go out to do canyons without looking at any message boards. They want the beta, and they want to go! I'd love to see more beta producers out there put more LNT principles of the area directly on the beta page. If its the first thing people see, then maybe the importance will stick with them.
    An idea.
    Mike
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group <mailto:canyons%40yahoogroups.com> , Luke Galyan <luke@> wrote:

    I agree those placing bolts should know and have experience.  But everyone starts somewhere right?  Its good to get these conversational learning session out on public forums.  Kinda helps open the mind of future bolters.  That was another motivation for my original post......as well as me just not knowing the answer.  :)

    Luke



    >
  2. bkilgrow3

    bkilgrow3 Guest

    This is a great discussion, and I appreciate the learnings. However, I need to add some clarification to the 'showboating' comment. The individual involved was very experienced. He was using a pirhana device. Shortly after beginning the descent he tried to add friction by flipping the rope over the horn on the pirhana. The rope missed the horn. The snap from the rope missing the device, coupled with the weight of nearly 300 feet of rope pulled the line from his hand. It wasn't showboating by any stretch. I think the lesson is accidents can happen to anyone, and it nevers hurts to have a belay.

    bret

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "aj.outdoors" <ajmail2011@...> wrote:
    I agree with Tom. When using the proper gear, and the proper techniques; our bodies are the weak link.
    My experiences with rescue groups and reading/research show that the most common issues are human-related. Tom mentions several common ones. Raps off the end of the rope should be fairly avoidable (paying attention or putting a knot in the end of the rope), but it's surprising how often it happens. Same concept for a belayer not noticing there's not enough rope and letting it go through the belay device.
    With the diameter of ropes getting smaller and smaller, more research is being done on devices to use for belaying. There was an incident (last year I think?) where a belayer wasn't able to catch a climbing lead fall on a thin rope. If I remember right, it was around a 9mm rope (8.9?) and the belayer was using a standard ATC; I believe without gloves - but I could be wrong on these details; I don't have the info/link on that one.
    Same concept sort of applies to canyoneering, i.e. don't let your rope speed get too fast through the belay device (especially on thinner ropes), as you might not be able to stop yourself, like the person in Insomnia: > http://www.paysonroundup.com/news/2011/aug/23/climber-miraculously-survives-140-foot-fall/
    He was showboating, but I've seen people need a fireman belay because they were going too fast on rappel and were burning their hands (sometimes through gloves) trying to stop themselves.
    The point is, many of these can be overcome with experience/training. I also put gear pulling out under that category; as it takes experience/practice to know good gear placements. There are active devices, like cams, that have a higher tolerance for placement; but passive devices like chocks/nuts don't have as much leeway for safe placement. To some degree, advanced canyon anchors are similar - needing knowledge/practice to use safely.
    Another easily preventable one, which could cause an issue under the right circumstances is that higher forces can be placed on anchors if you use a death triangle: > http://tinyurl.com/cpk6gvf
    > As Tom mentions, there are situations where gear fails, but it's fairly uncommon. I can think of only a handful in over 15 years of rescue work and/or outdoor play/research. Of those, most are understandable (in hindsight), like a rope getting cut on a climbing fall which traversed over a sharp ledge: > http://climbing.about.com/b/2011/03/12/accident-analysis-climber-falls-and-rope-breaks-in-eldorado-canyon.htm
    > Or Todd Skinner's harness. While there is still a little mystery on that one (i.e. no chemicals were found, so it still should have held rappelling loads: http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/article.php?art_id=2198), there was definitely visual clues that the harness should have been replaced as several people commented about it; including his last/final climbing partner.
    Always good to learn from the past...
    Mostly, wanted to give folks some things to think about. As far as the bolt question, I'm in alignment with Tom. Folks with experience should be able to tell if they are putting a safe bolt in. The obvious unfortunate thing, is that not everyone putting in bolts is experienced enough to know the difference...
    >
  3. Jenny

    Jenny Guest

    Luke, to clarify; you mean the "AC" (for American Canyoneers) rather than ACA, correct? Two different organizations, eh?

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Luke" <luke@...> wrote:
    Thanks for the input. Yup I am headed down a path similar to that. No > worries on ACA contributing I think those of us going are all self motivated > on this one. Thank you for the offer!

    Luke

    From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of > rich_rudow > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 3:12 PM > To: Yahoo Canyons Group
    Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Bolt hole patch opinion


    Hi Luke, thanks for taking the lead on removing the bolts in DV. I would > encourage you to check in with the appropriate NPS land manager first just > so they know that the canyoning community is willing, ready, and able to > police itself. You might see if Abby Snow can direct you to the correct DV > NPS contact person.
    It's a shame when people get heavy handed in these wonderful places and > potentially ruin access for the rest of us. However, in general, I've found > the land managers are "less upset" when we take responsibility for the > problem and fix it without requiring an expenditure of Government resources. > Let me know if we (American Canyoneers) can help in some way with tools, > resources, gas money, whatever ... to make this right. Huge props for > stepping up.
    Thanks,
    Rich (wearing my American Canyoneers access board member hat)
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group <mailto:canyons%40yahoogroups.com> , Luke > Galyan <luke@> wrote:

    I agree. Â Time of working on it becomes the issue........... Â Lets talk > more in person again. Â :)
    Luke


    You can rent the space inside my mind ..... at least until the price > becomes too high.
    Sent from my phone....... forgive the typos.


    -------- Original message --------
    From: Mike Schasch <mikeschasch@
    > Date:
    To: Yahoo Canyons Group <mailto:canyons%40yahoogroups.com
    > Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Bolt hole patch opinion

    So this to me is another example of the way beta is presented. (Luke > you've heard this all before and we've even worked on it). There are many > folks that go out to do canyons without looking at any message boards. They > want the beta, and they want to go! I'd love to see more beta producers out > there put more LNT principles of the area directly on the beta page. If its > the first thing people see, then maybe the importance will stick with them.

    An idea.

    Mike

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group <mailto:canyons%40yahoogroups.com> , Luke > Galyan <luke@> wrote:


    I agree those placing bolts should know and have experience.  But > everyone starts somewhere right?  Its good to get these conversational > learning session out on public forums.  Kinda helps open the mind of > future bolters.  That was another motivation for my original post......as > well as me just not knowing the answer.  :)


    Luke










    >
  4. TomJones

    TomJones Guest

    Interesting detail. Many of us had assumed he was showing off for the camera, then missed the rope flip when wishing to slow down.

    Too bad the bottom belayer was busy with the camera, rather than doing the bottom belay. On long rappels, I have been saved by the bottom belay on several occasions, when I did not get my friction just right. One reason it has become standard procedure among our group - RIGHT DAN???

    TOM

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "bkilgrow3" <bkilgrow3@...> wrote:
    > This is a great discussion, and I appreciate the learnings. However, I need to add some clarification to the 'showboating' comment. The individual involved was very experienced. He was using a pirhana device. Shortly after beginning the descent he tried to add friction by flipping the rope over the horn on the pirhana. The rope missed the horn. The snap from the rope missing the device, coupled with the weight of nearly 300 feet of rope pulled the line from his hand. It wasn't showboating by any stretch. I think the lesson is accidents can happen to anyone, and it nevers hurts to have a belay.
    bret >
  5. Luke

    Luke Guest

    Oops. I thought both organizations used ACA (American Canyoneering Academy and American Canyoneering Association). Guess I haven’t really kept up with the times. Sorry bout that. AC is what I meant. American Canyoneers.



    Luke



    From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of Jenny Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 8:14 PM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Bolt hole patch opinion





    Luke, to clarify; you mean the "AC" (for American Canyoneers) rather than ACA, correct? Two different organizations, eh?

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group <mailto:canyons%40yahoogroups.com> , "Luke" <luke@...> wrote:
    Thanks for the input. Yup I am headed down a path similar to that. No > worries on ACA contributing I think those of us going are all self motivated > on this one. Thank you for the offer!

    Luke

    From: Yahoo Canyons Group <mailto:canyons%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group <mailto:canyons%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of > rich_rudow > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 3:12 PM > To: Yahoo Canyons Group <mailto:canyons%40yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Bolt hole patch opinion


    Hi Luke, thanks for taking the lead on removing the bolts in DV. I would > encourage you to check in with the appropriate NPS land manager first just > so they know that the canyoning community is willing, ready, and able to > police itself. You might see if Abby Snow can direct you to the correct DV > NPS contact person.
    It's a shame when people get heavy handed in these wonderful places and > potentially ruin access for the rest of us. However, in general, I've found > the land managers are "less upset" when we take responsibility for the > problem and fix it without requiring an expenditure of Government resources. > Let me know if we (American Canyoneers) can help in some way with tools, > resources, gas money, whatever ... to make this right. Huge props for > stepping up.
    Thanks,
    Rich (wearing my American Canyoneers access board member hat)
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group <mailto:canyons%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:canyons%40yahoogroups.com> , Luke > Galyan <luke@> wrote:

    I agree. Â Time of working on it becomes the issue........... Â Lets talk > more in person again. Â :)
    Luke


    You can rent the space inside my mind ..... at least until the price > becomes too high.
    Sent from my phone....... forgive the typos.


    -------- Original message --------
    From: Mike Schasch <mikeschasch@
    > Date:
    To: Yahoo Canyons Group <mailto:canyons%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:canyons%40yahoogroups.com
    > Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Bolt hole patch opinion

    So this to me is another example of the way beta is presented. (Luke > you've heard this all before and we've even worked on it). There are many > folks that go out to do canyons without looking at any message boards. They > want the beta, and they want to go! I'd love to see more beta producers out > there put more LNT principles of the area directly on the beta page. If its > the first thing people see, then maybe the importance will stick with them.

    An idea.

    Mike

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group <mailto:canyons%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:canyons%40yahoogroups.com> , Luke > Galyan <luke@> wrote:


    I agree those placing bolts should know and have experience.  But > everyone starts somewhere right?  Its good to get these conversational > learning session out on public forums.  Kinda helps open the mind of > future bolters.  That was another motivation for my original post......as > well as me just not knowing the answer.  :)


    Luke










    >
  6. bkilgrow3

    bkilgrow3 Guest

    Our group too. I think the weight of a long rope changes conditions significantly, and it's often overlooked until you're on rope. Then it can be challenging to make changes

    bret

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "TomJones" <ratagonia@...> wrote:
    Interesting detail. Many of us had assumed he was showing off for the camera, then missed the rope flip when wishing to slow down.
    Too bad the bottom belayer was busy with the camera, rather than doing the bottom belay. On long rappels, I have been saved by the bottom belay on several occasions, when I did not get my friction just right. One reason it has become standard procedure among our group - RIGHT DAN???
    TOM
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "bkilgrow3" <bkilgrow3@> wrote:


    This is a great discussion, and I appreciate the learnings. However, I need to add some clarification to the 'showboating' comment. The individual involved was very experienced. He was using a pirhana device. Shortly after beginning the descent he tried to add friction by flipping the rope over the horn on the pirhana. The rope missed the horn. The snap from the rope missing the device, coupled with the weight of nearly 300 feet of rope pulled the line from his hand. It wasn't showboating by any stretch. I think the lesson is accidents can happen to anyone, and it nevers hurts to have a belay.

    bret
    >
  7. Dan

    Dan Guest

    huh? somebody say something? what?

    RIGHT DAN???
    TOM
  8. cyber_rager

    cyber_rager Guest

    I don't disagree with removing bolts, but be aware that we did place a handful of bolts during our first decents because we had no other options so it would be nice not to remove those.

    We did becomve really good at building deadmans and one could argue that those are more intrusive in the view that maybe a couple of small bolts that you can't see until you get to the drop. I am just saying...

    Scott Smith

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "TomJones" <ratagonia@...> wrote:
    Totally SUPPORT!!!
    tOM
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rich_rudow" <rich_rudow@> wrote:

    Hi Luke, thanks for taking the lead on removing the bolts in DV. I would encourage you to check in with the appropriate NPS land manager first just so they know that the canyoning community is willing, ready, and able to police itself. You might see if Abby Snow can direct you to the correct DV NPS contact person.

    It's a shame when people get heavy handed in these wonderful places and potentially ruin access for the rest of us. However, in general, I've found the land managers are "less upset" when we take responsibility for the problem and fix it without requiring an expenditure of Government resources. Let me know if we (American Canyoneers) can help in some way with tools, resources, gas money, whatever ... to make this right. Huge props for stepping up.

    Thanks,

    Rich (wearing my American Canyoneers access board member hat) >
  9. RAM

    RAM Guest

    Hi Scott...long time.

    At issue here is that bolts in DV are illegal AND the park cares about that. So to stay on good terms, relationships with the resource management folks has been probed, to offer support, so that the bulk of canyoneers don't get lumped with a few rule breakers (whether on purpose or through ignorance) right when management poilies are being set for the next 20 years.

    One could effectively argue both sides of "bolts vs. cairn anchors" argument. The good news is that DV cairn anchors last for many years, as the floods are such rare events and such don't need rebuildiong and more shifting of things around.

    R



    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "cyber_rager" <cyber_rager@...> wrote:
    I don't disagree with removing bolts, but be aware that we did place a handful of bolts during our first decents because we had no other options so it would be nice not to remove those.
    We did becomve really good at building deadmans and one could argue that those are more intrusive in the view that maybe a couple of small bolts that you can't see until you get to the drop. I am just saying...
    Scott Smith
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "TomJones" <ratagonia@> wrote:

    Totally SUPPORT!!!

    tOM

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rich_rudow" <rich_rudow@> wrote:


    Hi Luke, thanks for taking the lead on removing the bolts in DV. I would encourage you to check in with the appropriate NPS land manager first just so they know that the canyoning community is willing, ready, and able to police itself. You might see if Abby Snow can direct you to the correct DV NPS contact person.


    It's a shame when people get heavy handed in these wonderful places and potentially ruin access for the rest of us. However, in general, I've found the land managers are "less upset" when we take responsibility for the problem and fix it without requiring an expenditure of Government resources. Let me know if we (American Canyoneers) can help in some way with tools, resources, gas money, whatever ... to make this right. Huge props for stepping up.


    Thanks,


    Rich (wearing my American Canyoneers access board member hat)
    >
  10. TomJones

    TomJones Guest

    Clarification:

    Bolts are NOT illegal in Death Valley.

    Placing NEW bolts is illegal.

    In one sense, bolts are more intrusive than cairn anchors. In another sense, cairn anchors are more intrusive. To me, bolts are more intrusive.

    Tom

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "RAM" <adkramoo@...> wrote:
    Hi Scott...long time.
    At issue here is that bolts in DV are illegal AND the park cares about that. So to stay on good terms, relationships with the resource management folks has been probed, to offer support, so that the bulk of canyoneers don't get lumped with a few rule breakers (whether on purpose or through ignorance) right when management poilies are being set for the next 20 years.
    One could effectively argue both sides of "bolts vs. cairn anchors" argument. The good news is that DV cairn anchors last for many years, as the floods are such rare events and such don't need rebuildiong and more shifting of things around.
    R

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "cyber_rager" <cyber_rager@> wrote:

    I don't disagree with removing bolts, but be aware that we did place a handful of bolts during our first decents because we had no other options so it would be nice not to remove those.

    We did becomve really good at building deadmans and one could argue that those are more intrusive in the view that maybe a couple of small bolts that you can't see until you get to the drop. I am just saying...

    Scott Smith

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "TomJones" <ratagonia@> wrote:


    Totally SUPPORT!!!


    tOM


    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rich_rudow" <rich_rudow@> wrote:



    Hi Luke, thanks for taking the lead on removing the bolts in DV. I would encourage you to check in with the appropriate NPS land manager first just so they know that the canyoning community is willing, ready, and able to police itself. You might see if Abby Snow can direct you to the correct DV NPS contact person.



    It's a shame when people get heavy handed in these wonderful places and potentially ruin access for the rest of us. However, in general, I've found the land managers are "less upset" when we take responsibility for the problem and fix it without requiring an expenditure of Government resources. Let me know if we (American Canyoneers) can help in some way with tools, resources, gas money, whatever ... to make this right. Huge props for stepping up.



    Thanks,



    Rich (wearing my American Canyoneers access board member hat)
  11. rickinlo

    rickinlo Guest

    > Clarification:
    Bolts are NOT illegal in Death Valley.
    Placing NEW bolts is illegal.
    In one sense, bolts are more intrusive than cairn anchors. In another sense, cairn anchors are more intrusive. To me, bolts are more intrusive.

    This is good. It would be difficult to fine the bolts.
  12. Luke Galyan

    Luke Galyan Guest

    Hey Scott; Would you be willing to share the location of first descent bolts?  Are you talking about DV?  And if you are inclined dates would be nice.    Hard to make decisions without information to mentally chew on. 

    Luke

    From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

    -------- Original message -------- From: cyber_rager cyber_rager@yahoo.com> Date: To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Bolt hole patch opinion

    I don't disagree with removing bolts, but be aware that we did place a handful of bolts during our first decents because we had no other options so it would be nice not to remove those.

    We did becomve really good at building deadmans and one could argue that those are more intrusive in the view that maybe a couple of small bolts that you can't see until you get to the drop. I am just saying...

    Scott Smith

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "TomJones" <ratagonia@...> wrote:
    Totally SUPPORT!!!
    tOM
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rich_rudow" <rich_rudow@> wrote:

    Hi Luke, thanks for taking the lead on removing the bolts in DV. I would encourage you to check in with the appropriate NPS land manager first just so they know that the canyoning community is willing, ready, and able to police itself. You might see if Abby Snow can direct you to the correct DV NPS contact person.

    It's a shame when people get heavy handed in these wonderful places and potentially ruin access for the rest of us. However, in general, I've found the land managers are "less upset" when we take responsibility for the problem and fix it without requiring an expenditure of Government resources. Let me know if we (American Canyoneers) can help in some way with tools, resources, gas money, whatever ... to make this right. Huge props for stepping up.

    Thanks,

    Rich (wearing my American Canyoneers access board member hat) >
  13. TomJones

    TomJones Guest

    Further Clarification:

    It is NOT difficult to fine the bolts - not like they can run away.

    It is, however, difficult to COLLECT!

    Tom

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rickinlo" <rickinlo@...> wrote:

    Clarification:

    Bolts are NOT illegal in Death Valley.

    Placing NEW bolts is illegal.

    In one sense, bolts are more intrusive than cairn anchors. In another sense, cairn anchors are more intrusive. To me, bolts are more intrusive.
    > This is good. It would be difficult to fine the bolts. >
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