Bod Harnesses without Belay Loops

Hi

Stick that belay loop somewhere where you don't need it. I'lll stick with my Alpine bod & two BD large Quick locking biners anytime!!!

Walter

File this among my quiver of pet peeves, but I can't stand canyoneering with folks with Bod Harnesses (or Alp Bods) that do not have belay loops on them. New Bods have Belay Loops starting this year, but...

***FREE OFFER*** This one I can do something about. Anyone who wants a belay loop on your Bod, send it to me and I will put one on for you, free. Official, up to snuff style. About 10 days to turn it around.

Send to:

Tom Jones Black Diamond Equipment 2084 East 3900 South Salt Lake City UT 84124

Hi Tom,

I know that these harnesses don't come with a belay loop but if you think about it , this makes sense for mountaineering. For one , you can drop your drawers and two you can get into the bloody thing with your crampons on. As far as canyoneering, I'm still trying to find the perfect harness. For now my caving harness seems to work really well.

Todd ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jones" tom@jrat.com> To: <Yahoo Canyons Group> Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 7:22 PM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Bod Harnesses without Belay Loops

> File this among my quiver of pet peeves, but I can't stand > canyoneering with folks with Bod Harnesses (or Alp Bods) that do not > have belay loops on them. New Bods have Belay Loops starting this > year, but...
***FREE OFFER*** This one I can do something about. Anyone who wants > a belay loop on your Bod, send it to me and I will put one on for > you, free. Official, up to snuff style. About 10 days to turn it > around.
Send to:
Tom Jones > Black Diamond Equipment > 2084 East 3900 South > Salt Lake City UT 84124


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Tom, what an incredibly generous offer!

Uhh...gee, I hate to ask, but, a haul loop on the back and quick disconnect buckles on the front might be nice options to mention as well that folks might be willing to pay a couple extra bucks for...

I use my alpine bod with a belay loop. No problemo putting the harness on over crampons (same same just remember to run the main strap thru the loop before passing thru the buckle...the only diff).

Can still drop the drawers too but leave the leg loops on (loosen up by unthreading the leg buckles). Just can't drop trou all the way but enough to sorta make it work maybe (perhaps only possible whilst wearing thin stretchy tights...or...like Brewtus of Wyde, a black offwidth thong from the Pretty Bazaar) Still easier belay loop or no to just take off the harness altogether.

Havin' used the alpine bod both with and without a belay loop, I'm totally sold on the belay loop. Easy for clippin' in to anchors too besides just clippin' in a belay or rap biner.

Minor harness rant...that thin webbing on the back that runs down to the leg loops don't last long butt slidin' and chimneying...but...I suppose that's what freesole is fer...hmmm...

Brian in SLC

Hi, If you like this type of harness, also check the Metolius Maestro, it has an isolated tie-in point on swami belt which makes it more stable and the waist buckle is located out off the tie-in point, which, for me, in the BD Bod is kind of annoying and awkward.

Ernesto C.

--- In canyons@y..., beadysee@f... wrote: > Tom, what an incredibly generous offer!
Uhh...gee, I hate to ask, but, a haul loop on the back and quick > disconnect buckles on the front might be nice options to mention as > well that folks might be willing to pay a couple extra bucks for...
I use my alpine bod with a belay loop. No problemo putting the > harness on over crampons (same same just remember to run the main > strap thru the loop before passing thru the buckle...the only diff).
Can still drop the drawers too but leave the leg loops on (loosen up > by unthreading the leg buckles). Just can't drop trou all the way > but enough to sorta make it work maybe (perhaps only possible whilst > wearing thin stretchy tights...or...like Brewtus of Wyde, a black > offwidth thong from the Pretty Bazaar) Still easier belay loop or no > to just take off the harness altogether.
Havin' used the alpine bod both with and without a belay loop, I'm > totally sold on the belay loop. Easy for clippin' in to anchors too > besides just clippin' in a belay or rap biner.
Minor harness rant...that thin webbing on the back that runs down to > the leg loops don't last long butt slidin' and chimneying...but...I > suppose that's what freesole is fer...hmmm...
Brian in SLC

Hi

But like the lady said....a belay loop makes it very difficult to remore/add layers.....remove crampoons or skis all while staying tied in!!!!!

MOUNTAINEERS RULE!!!

Walter

I'll admit it - I'm a bit lost on this belay loop debate so please indulge me while I ask some dumb questions.

My impression is that a belay loop connects the front strap between the legs (crotch) to the belt (I'm sure I'm using the wrong terms, but I hope my description is understandable). From the pictures on the Black Diamond's website, the Bod has belay loops while the Alpine Bod does not. Am I close here?

OK, so why is a having a belay loop good? If I have a locking biner connecting the crotch strap with the belt aren't I setup as if I had a belay loop? Is the problem that people forget the biner on the harness? Or is it just nice to have more ways to tie off / tie in?

If the belay loop connects the crotch strap to the belt and I have the Alpine Bod (which I do), doesn't that defeat the purpose of those quick release buckles?

Bottom line for me: I'm inclined to leave my Alpine Bod the wya it is unless someone gives me good reason to add the belay loop. Thanks.

- Kris Nosack

Hi

You are correct. That's for those of us who like to go high into the mountains where it's cold. Ideally with an alpine bod, ues use an HMS locking biner in lieu of a belay loop.

Walter

--- In canyons@y..., "Kris Nosack" <kn@x> wrote: > I'll admit it - I'm a bit lost on this belay loop debate so please indulge me while I ask some dumb questions...

... the Bod has belay loops while the Alpine Bod does not. Am I close here?

B-I-N-G-O...

> OK, so why is a having a belay loop good?

Single point to connect you to an anchor or a rappel biner. Single point. One place. Gets the belay or rap device out a bit and away from yer bod. Easy to manipulate and easy to see if you've done things correctly.

> If I have a locking biner connecting the crotch strap with the belt aren't I setup as if I had a belay loop?

Yep, but, busy busy.

> Is the problem that people forget the biner on the harness? Or is it just nice to have more ways to tie off / tie in?

Easier to see especially for us portly fellers...and easier to manipulate or anchor in with.

> If the belay loop connects the crotch strap to the belt and I have the Alpine Bod (which I do), doesn't that defeat the purpose of those quick release buckles?

If yer a girl or Michael Jackson, maybe...(somethings gotta keep them pesky straps off yer potential younguns...). Remember them lovely Whillans harnesses...?

> Bottom line for me: I'm inclined to leave my Alpine Bod the wya it is unless someone gives me good reason to add the belay loop. Thanks.

YMMV! Way more convienient for me. I mucho prefer the belay loop. I only have one harness in current use that doesn't have a belay loop, an older Wild Country Alpinist which I'm slowly wearing out in the climbing gym. Pain in the butt...

Brian in SLC

--- In canyons@y..., "Kris Nosack" <kn@x> wrote: > I'll admit it - I'm a bit lost on this belay loop debate so please indulge me while I ask some dumb questions.
My impression is that a belay loop connects the front strap between the legs (crotch) to the belt (I'm sure I'm using the wrong terms, but I hope my description is understandable). From the pictures on the Black Diamond's website, the Bod has belay loops while the Alpine Bod does not. Am I close here? > CORRECTAMUNDO.

> OK, so why is a having a belay loop good? If I have a locking biner > connecting the crotch strap with the belt aren't I setup as if I had a belay loop? Is the problem that people forget the biner on the harness? Or is it just nice to have more ways to tie off / tie in?

SIMILAR, NOT THE SAME. If you have a belay loop, then your belay/rappel biner is dangling easily accessible out in front, and rigging your rappel is fast and easy. When the biner is held under tension against the body, with extraneous clothing falling into it, and the canyoneer is standing at an awkward stance, trying to get two strands of stiff rope, under-tension into their dual auto-locking biners – okay, maybe it should not amp me up quite so much, but the belay loop was invented 15 years ago for a good reason – because it works.

THE SITUATION is of course aggravated by using those skinny little 8mm ropes, where two biners should be used with an ATC or Jaws.

WHY SHOULD I CARE? I'm trying to shepherd 8 people down a canyon with 12 rappels that is already going to be a long day. 4 of these people are not very experienced and rappel at a glacial speed as is. With that large a group, people stand around yakking and it takes fetching forever to work people through the rappels.
If the belay loop connects the crotch strap to the belt and I have the Alpine Bod (which I do), doesn't that defeat the purpose of those quick release buckles?

NOT REALLY. To some degree, but, ease of putting on is ease of putting on. Thread a buckle, or just clip it – I'll take just clip it.
Bottom line for me: I'm inclined to leave my Alpine Bod the way it is unless > someone gives me good reason to add the belay loop. Thanks. > IF IT WORKS for you, just fine. I offer, you can accept or decline, no penalty either way. But speed is safety. For short raps in canyons, I set up my rappel "device" in 2 seconds flat, and if you canyon with me and represent yourself as an expert, I expect the same kind of efficiency.

Tom

--- In canyons@y..., wpick87506@a... wrote: > But like the lady said....a belay loop makes it very difficult to remore/add layers

I´ll go along with this...with regard for pants or bottom layers, but, still easier to just take off the harness irrespective of a belay loop...

<.....remove crampoons or skis all while staying tied in!!!!!

Belay loop, once your in or not in yer harness, has no bearing on removing skis or crampons if its a diaper style like the alpine bod. As far as removing crampóns or crampoons, if yer wearing your harness and are tied in, a belay loop makes no difference...

> MOUNTAINEERS RULE!!!

Yepper!

Brian in SLC

> WHY SHOULD I CARE? I'm trying to shepherd 8 people down a canyon with > 12 rappels that is already going to be a long day. 4 of these people > are not very experienced and rappel at a glacial speed as is. With > that large a group, people stand around yakking and it takes fetching > forever to work people through the rappels.

I'm not trying to be snide, but with the group described above, you would almost certainly have four ropes, with each experienced person "owning" a rope and checking each newbie. We did Mystery with a group of seven, three newbies, and went like shit through a goose. The first three guys down the first drop had ropes. First guy down rigs the second drop, second guy down is first on the second drop and rigs the third, etc. We had four ropes active at the same time on the first four drops and no newbie was ever rappelling without being checked first. The last guy down each drop is the rope "owner" who pulls the rope and has play-through priveleges at any subsequent drops. If you're organized that way, you save so much time that an extra ten seconds for each person at each drop will make little difference. In a canyon where the drops are farther apart and you don't want newbies doing unspotted downclimbing and unsupervised route-finding each experienced person can "own" a newbie. I get dibs on any Mae West bunnies. That said, I like belay loops.

Gordon