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Black Hole - Rope Required

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by Tom Jones, Sep 1, 2001.

  1. Tom Jones

    Tom Jones Guest

    I certainly needed a rope the one time I did it. Going solo makes me more cautious. And I certainly agree with Shane that it is irresponsible for a guidebook author to say "no rope required". Who knows who will read the guide book and head down there?

    Tom

    --- In canyons@y..., "Shane B." <edg78@c...> wrote:
    >I've done the Black Hole twice and didn't see the need for a rope. <<
    Before anyone get's the wrong idea there are two downclimbs in the "Black > Hole" with exposure. Climbers will probably not have problems at these two > areas but hikers will require a 50' rope (just ask Dave who recently rescued > two people and there dog). I would consider it irresponsible for a scout > leader to descend these two sections without belaying his troop, but we all > know that that scouts never need rescue and never get hurt. I would also > consider it irresponsible for anyone who has never done this canyon to > enter it without a rope. I consider it irresponsible for a guide book > author (Kelsey) not to list a 50' rope as required gear.
    I have a list of stories of people who become trapped in the Black Hole > which I intend to publish to my web site when I get the time. Most were > using Kelsey's book. One group was sent by the Hite Marina Ranger, the > group was inexperienced, unprepared and did not begin hiking until 3:00 p.m. > The ranger had told them it was a nice 4 or 5 hour hike. The one item which > trapped all these groups was a lack of rope.
    I list a 50' rope as required on my web site. I noticed Tom also lists it > as required on his.
    Shane Burrows
  2. Coach Stoff

    Coach Stoff Guest

    First time guy on board. I have been down The black hole a couple of times. First time with no rope. Very adventurous and not advisable....Thanks Kelsey!! and since then with 50' of rope much more enjoyable for the newbies I took thru. Shane if you want the story on my first time through e-mail me.

    Anyone going to Zion this weekend? Stoff

    --- In canyons@y..., "Tom Jones" <tom@j...> wrote: > I certainly needed a rope the one time I did it. Going solo makes me more cautious. And I certainly agree with Shane that it is irresponsible for a guidebook author to say "no rope required". Who knows who will read the guide book and head down there?
    Tom
  3. Shane B.

    Shane B. Guest

    >>I have been down The black Hole a couple of times. First time with no rope. Very adventurous and not advisable....Thanks Kelsey!! <<

    You guys will not have to worry about Kelsey for a while. I understand he is on the east coast chumming for sharks....hahaha.....Somewhere in the Virgina area last I heard....hehehe...

    Shane
  4. Hello,

    I just took a look at Kelsey's 4th Edition and he recommends that for the Black Hole you bring 2 or 3 ropes up to 30 feet in length. Also, he mentions to "be prepared for changes, which occur with each flash flood." I don't have the 3rd Edition in front of me but I recall him mentioning bringing rope in that one, too.

    Am I missing something here? Why is everyone saying that Kelsey does not recommend bringing a rope?

    I don't mean to sound harsh (by the way, Stoff, welcome to the group), but why must some people - many of whom call themselves "canyoneers" - blame someone else for their troubles?

    Adequate gear and accurate directions seem to be the biggest areas of complaint. My recommendations are:

    Go armed for bear (especially if it's your first time in the canyon), with the skills to use the stuff. Beta can be a good thing, but canyons change. Even Kelsey points that out. Floods can wipe out natural anchors and create new obstacles. Rockfall can wipe out bolt stations and create new obstacles. And on and on...

    Also, bring a 7.5" topo and have the means to read it. That'll take care of bogus trailhead directions or canyon entry/exit dilemmas.

    Of course, to heed these two recommendations and still have something go wrong would likely mean that the person would actually have to shoulder the blame. Now that's scary!

    Moab Matt

    --- In canyons@y..., "Coach Stoff" <r.stoffers@m...> wrote: > First time guy on board. > I have been down The black hole a couple of times. First time with no > rope. Very adventurous and not advisable....Thanks Kelsey!! and since > then with 50' of rope much more enjoyable for the newbies I took thru. > Shane if you want the story on my first time through e-mail me.
    Anyone going to Zion this weekend? > Stoff
  5. Shane B.

    Shane B. Guest

    Matt,

    I don't have Kelsey's book in front of me right now but I believe the confusion was in the wording which might have been corrected in later editions. The book I have says something about a rope "might" be required by less experienced members of the group and the remark is kind of buried with some other details and not with the recommended gear section. It certainly does not list a rope as required gear. But other than that all your suggestions are good.

    As for reading a Topo, Hank meet a group of "??canyoneers??" at the ZP East Mesa trailhead several weeks ago. Seems they had Hiked up from Weeping Rock intending to do Mystery. They walked past the head of Not Mystery, Mystery and South Fork and had yet to find a canyon to drop into. Unfortunately for Hank, he directed the Bumblebees down the correct canyon and than had to put up with them all day long. So much for Topos.

    Shane
  6. llana kanka

    llana kanka Guest

    I've done a little Kelsey-bashing myself in the past, but I've got to agree with Matt here. A little more self-reliance and preparedness can fill a lot of the information gaps. Kelsey may not have mentioned or emphasized everything about every canyon or mountain he's described, but he's put out a LOT of information. I think there's a lot more adventure available if we don't have every step described in immaculate detail. And if anyone screws up, they should admit that they were AT LEAST as innacurate or incorrect as Kelsy is often accused of being.

    DB



    --- matt@deserthighlights.com wrote:
    Hello,
    I just took a look at Kelsey's 4th Edition and he > recommends that for > the Black Hole you bring 2 or 3 ropes up to 30 feet > in length. Also, > he mentions to "be prepared for changes, which occur > with each flash > flood." I don't have the 3rd Edition in front of me > but I recall him > mentioning bringing rope in that one, too.
    Am I missing something here? Why is everyone saying > that Kelsey does > not recommend bringing a rope?
    I don't mean to sound harsh (by the way, Stoff, > welcome to the group), > but why must some people - many of whom call > themselves "canyoneers" - > blame someone else for their troubles?
    Adequate gear and accurate directions seem to be the > biggest areas of > complaint. My recommendations are:
    Go armed for bear (especially if it's your first > time in the canyon), > with the skills to use the stuff. Beta can be a > good thing, but > canyons change. Even Kelsey points that out. > Floods can wipe out > natural anchors and create new obstacles. Rockfall > can wipe out bolt > stations and create new obstacles. And on and on...
    Also, bring a 7.5" topo and have the means to read > it. That'll take > care of bogus trailhead directions or canyon > entry/exit dilemmas.
    Of course, to heed these two recommendations and > still have something > go wrong would likely mean that the person would > actually have to > shoulder the blame. Now that's scary!
    Moab Matt
    > --- In canyons@y..., "Coach Stoff" <r.stoffers@m...
    wrote:
    First time guy on board.
    I have been down The black hole a couple of times. > First time with > no
    rope. Very adventurous and not advisable....Thanks > Kelsey!! and > since
    then with 50' of rope much more enjoyable for the > newbies I took > thru.
    Shane if you want the story on my first time > through e-mail me.

    Anyone going to Zion this weekend?
    Stoff


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  7. > I just took a look at Kelsey's 4th Edition and he recommends that for > the Black Hole you bring 2 or 3 ropes up to 30 feet in length.

    ...

    > Am I missing something here? Why is everyone saying that Kelsey does > not recommend bringing a rope?
    I don't mean to sound harsh (by the way, Stoff, welcome to the group), > but why must some people - many of whom call themselves "canyoneers" - > blame someone else for their troubles?

    Matt,

    You are 100% correct. Just looked in the book, and not only does he say bring several short ropes, it's underlined - pretty hard to miss. Perhaps people think they are experienced enough that they don't need to bring a rope? Beats me. Personally, I think it's part of the omni-present (and imho completely unjustified - yes, my mind is slowly changing) Kelsey-bashing that seems to circulate around the canyoneering world on a regular basis...

    I agree with you. Each individual who enters a canyon should be responsible if they make bad decisions. Amen, brother!

    Ok, off my soapbox now...

    Mike dallin@on-line.com
  8. Hi,

    Just looked up the Black Hole in Kelsey's 2nd Edition and he states "Best also to have a short rope for any kind of an emergency and to help less-experienced members of your group our of the canyon at m.p. 55." He also states that "only prepared hikers can make it all the way through the "Black Hole"" and goes on to describe how it took HIM three attempts to make it through. Sounds to me like he's telling us that this is not an easy walk in the park.

    I agree with Matt that Kelsey is not responsible for my safety, I am!! Does help to have good Beta but always the possibility that something has changed or information is incomplete. Also as we saying in caving Guano Happens so be prepared.

    Welcome to the group Stoff and please send me a copy of your trip report on your first time through.

    --- In canyons@y..., matt@d... wrote:
    Hello,
    I just took a look at Kelsey's 4th Edition and he recommends that for > the Black Hole you bring 2 or 3 ropes up to 30 feet in length. Also, > he mentions to "be prepared for changes, which occur with each flash > flood." I don't have the 3rd Edition in front of me but I recall him > mentioning bringing rope in that one, too.
    Am I missing something here? Why is everyone saying that Kelsey does > not recommend bringing a rope?
    I don't mean to sound harsh (by the way, Stoff, welcome to the group), > but why must some people - many of whom call themselves "canyoneers" - > blame someone else for their troubles?
    Adequate gear and accurate directions seem to be the biggest areas of > complaint. My recommendations are:
    Go armed for bear (especially if it's your first time in the canyon), > with the skills to use the stuff. Beta can be a good thing, but > canyons change. Even Kelsey points that out. Floods can wipe out > natural anchors and create new obstacles. Rockfall can wipe out bolt > stations and create new obstacles. And on and on...
    Also, bring a 7.5" topo and have the means to read it. That'll take > care of bogus trailhead directions or canyon entry/exit dilemmas.
    Of course, to heed these two recommendations and still have something > go wrong would likely mean that the person would actually have to > shoulder the blame. Now that's scary!
    Moab Matt
    > --- In canyons@y..., "Coach Stoff" <r.stoffers@m...> wrote:
    First time guy on board.
    I have been down The black hole a couple of times. First time with > no
    rope. Very adventurous and not advisable....Thanks Kelsey!! and > since
    then with 50' of rope much more enjoyable for the newbies I took > thru.
    Shane if you want the story on my first time through e-mail me.

    Anyone going to Zion this weekend?
    Stoff
  9. --- In canyons@y..., fredkill007@y... wrote: > Just looked up the Black Hole in Kelsey's 2nd Edition and he > states "Best also to have a short rope for any kind of an emergency > and to help less-experienced members of your group our of the canyon > at m.p. 55." He also states that "only prepared hikers can make it > all the way through the "Black Hole"" and goes on to describe how it > took HIM three attempts to make it through. Sounds to me like he's > telling us that this is not an easy walk in the park.
    I agree with Matt that Kelsey is not responsible for my safety, I > am!! Does help to have good Beta but always the possibility that > something has changed or information is incomplete. Also as we > saying in caving Guano Happens so be prepared.

    Same verbage as the 1986 first edition. We took a rope and didn't use it in the main canyon but did use it for a comforting belay in the exit canyon. So...was good beta from Kelsey there.

    Yep, watch yer topknot...

    Brian in SLC
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