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Tech Tip: Question Biner Block/Rigging Question

Discussion in 'Tech Tips and Gear' started by Erik B., Jun 8, 2013.

  1. Erik B.

    Erik B. Thirsty for canyon...

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    I've always been inclined to untie the back-up figure 8 from Tom's biner block diagram after all but the last are off rappel as I consider it added risk for sticking a rope. Do you all untie or leave it in place prior to the last person and for the pull?

    http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techtips/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/binerblock1.jpg


    I have always assumed that the knot (overhand, double-fishermans, etc) between the rappel line and the pull cord would provide adaquete blockage given a slip in the clove-hitch. Do you all consider slippage in a clove hitch with climbing rope a real possibility? I've heard that it is possible with a clove hitch that isn't dressed out well or with a rope if it is stiff/new.
  2. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    One reason I now use a triple clove. A clove-hitch can slip, a good reason to tighten it well. Adding a backup system is a poor substitute for doing it right in the first place.

    If you have a clean pull, there is no harm in leaving the knot in place, but if the pull has any of the normal bad places, best to take it out. Sometimes even better to take the biner block out and rap double (of course)...

    Tom
  3. Bootboy

    Bootboy Atwood Gear

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    The locking clove works very well for this as well, it's what I rap on for biner blocks exclusively. It's also nice because its torque free, it doesn't require a twist in the rope like a clove does.
  4. Erik B.

    Erik B. Thirsty for canyon...

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    Either of you guys have a good reference for how to tie either of those knots? I'm no knot prodigy. :)
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  5. Bootboy

    Bootboy Atwood Gear

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    It's also known as the Constrictor knot. Here's how I tie it in-line

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Clip the cross-over
    [​IMG]

    Tighten it gently on the corner

    [​IMG]

    Then work it onto the spine which further tightens it.[​IMG]

    To loosen it, just work it into the corner, and regardless of how tight it is, it is easy to break the knot open in the corner

    Hope that helps
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  6. Deerchaser

    Deerchaser JB

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    Thanks a lot Bootboy. Looks like a great option. How is it on stiff/new rope?
  7. Bootboy

    Bootboy Atwood Gear

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    It works fine. The nice thing about it that it locks on itself, so once set, it is much less prone to loosen on its own when unloaded.
  8. gajslk

    gajslk

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    That helps a lot. It's a different knot than the triple clove, and I like it a lot better. Did you notice that it's a clove hitch with an entrapped overhand, rather than the normal clove hitch, which entraps two parallel strands? I like that, too, it makes it easy to check after all these years of looking at clove hitches. Is this knot also known as the locking clove? I think you implied that above, but it's nice to double check.

    Thanks, Gordon
  9. hank moon

    hank moon lovely ligatures

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    Hey Boots, good to know there are other fans of this under-appreciated hitch. :)

    Here's another tie method:

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  10. 2065toyota

    2065toyota

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    http://www.animatedknots.com/constrictor/



    Constrictor Knot (Twisting Method) Details


    Disadvantages: It fails when tied against a flat surface - it requires a curved surface for the binding turn to grip the Half Hitch. MAY NOT BE THE BEST CHOICE FOR A FLAT FIDDLESTICK

    Release: The knot can be very hard to undo - cutting the knot can be the only resort. When this is necessary, the binding strand should be cut over the other constrictor strands, using them to protect your rope.
  11. hank moon

    hank moon lovely ligatures

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    The above comments come directly from a web site, and not (I take it) from personal experience? Also from the site:

    "It is an excellent quick temporary whipping for a fraying rope's end and can be used to keep a rope's end together while it is being whipped. It securely ties the neck of a sack or bag; it has been used as a temporary hose clamp; and it can be used to hold items together for gluing."


    I have never had any trouble untying this hitch from around a carabiner spine, or similar rigid item. It can be a bear to untie when used to close a sack (for example). The "flat fail" comment might be more appropriate in the Fiddlestick thread, though I'm not convinced of its veracity - testing will tell!
  12. 2065toyota

    2065toyota

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    That was a direct quote from their site. I have no personal experience with the knot, and did not look a ton into it's background. The knot looked interesting so I started searching around for it. The stone knot is simple to use as is the clove hitch or double/triple clove if you want to.
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  13. Bootboy

    Bootboy Atwood Gear

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    The bend ratio of the knot tied with 8-9mm rope around a fiddle stick hardly constitutes a flat surface. In addition, what ever source you are quoting certainly does not account for the fact that the knot is tied with parallel strands. Yes, it may be hard to untie, but that's the good thing about using a fiddle stick, you don't have to untie anything, you simply pull out the stick. No untying necessary. And when used on the spine of a biner, you simply move the hitch to the corner of the carabiner, and it releases with ease. I trust this knot waaayyyyy more than a standard clove for a biner block, in my opinion, it is superior in every way for this specific application. Try it and see.
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  14. Mountaineer

    Mountaineer Is that an X slot?

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    Adding a data point. We used the constrictor instead of the clove on our locking biners this weekend, and it worked great. Little harder to get off than a clove hitch, but the knot felt more secure.

    Making sure the clove is really tight before proceeding has always worked for me. However, I did feel a little safer with the constrictor...
  15. Blake Merrell

    Blake Merrell Lovin' Utah's Backcountry

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    Has anyone ever experienced a clove hitch block failing?
  16. Mountaineer

    Mountaineer Is that an X slot?

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    I've used it hundreds of times, with my life on it. Always cinch it tight. However, given what I read over the weekend on animated knots I've now given it pause, hence my use of the constrictor:

    Caution: The Clove Hitch (ABOK # 1245, p 224) was, originally, included here with the intention of condemning it. It does have two giant faults: it slips and, paradoxically, can also bind. It should be deeply distrusted when used by itself.

  17. hank moon

    hank moon lovely ligatures

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    hmmm. i find the supplementary info on that site to be sometimes vague and misleading for specific applications, though their tying instructions are generally solid. Not a fan of their half-hitch finish on a munter mule. Anyway, here's even more info that might be of interest:

    http://www.geir.com/mythbuster.html
    http://www.climbingguidesinstitute.org/site/images/pdf/observations-of-the-clove-hitch.pdf
    http://www.guidetricksforclimbers.c...-articles/78-use-and-abuse-of-the-clove-hitch

    'course it would be great to have similar data with canyon ropes, with some of the usual variables:

    - rope (new, old, wet, dry, fat, thin, soft, hard, # of sheath carriers)
    - tying and cinching method(s)
    - different carabiner cross sections
    - ?

    perhaps a volunteer youth organization with copious free labor resources could undertake this as a project? :)
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  18. Mike Zampino

    Mike Zampino Canyon season never ends.

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    That's my question too, except I would add "properly tied and set" to that.
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  19. Mountaineer

    Mountaineer Is that an X slot?

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    Interesting test results, very helpful!

    One report says a clove fails when observed a mariner tying a bow to the dock. But testing with climbing rope shows it is secure. I can't believe the larger diameter rope would slip. I wonder if the mariner was tying the hitch correctly? Hmmm....
  20. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Perhaps demonstrating that making universal statements about knots and ropes is folly.

    When testing ropes and knots, it is very important to critically analyze all parameters. Works with 9.2mm rope, but not with 8mm rope??? Works with climbing rope, but not with canyoneering rope? All things possible.

    Climbers sometimes use clove hitches to rig multi-point anchors. Thus, tying a fat climbing rope into the bottom of a small, thin, sharply-D-shaped non-locking carabiner - and if not done carefully these can slip. This is not what we are doing, we are doing something quite different - at least, we should be doing something different.

    Tom
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