Authors, G-Picks and Names

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, scott patterson <kesscokim@...> wrote:

> Actually, I belive he has tried to contact Steve Allen (as have I). If I remember right, MK wanted to talk to him before.

Tell MK to ditch the G-Pick, do a little wilderness advocacy and perhaps just use one of the many old names that are commonly used, instead of making all new ones, no matter how many people are using the old ones. Then I bet he would have better luck making contact. SA IS very busy, as you suggested and out of touvch for long periods of time and his time is very much in demand. MK was quite insistant about the merits of the g-pick, a destructive method that is massively dangerous in soft sandstone. Wonder if he asked the lawyer about that? He defended his use of it, especially because "I am out by myself so often", as if that entitles anyone to vandalize and be the proponent of dangerous practices. Many of his friends and partners have chided him about it. Some of these folks have even said MK is softening on the issue. I saw zero evidence of that. I am hopeful nevertheless, becasue some very well thought out folks, who have his ear, are prodding him on the issue.


I've never met SA either. I ran into people whom know him, or at least claim to, but never met the man himself. I wrote him a few letters once. Maybe he likes to be left alone or doesn't have the time? Or maybe they never got to him? Tough man to get ahold of.


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<<<Tell MK to ditch the G-Pick, do a little wilderness advocacy and perhaps just use one of the many old names that are commonly used, instead of making all new ones, no matter how many people are using the old ones. >>>

Many have prodded him about the g-pick. As far as changing names, SA is just as guilty. He has changed some of MK's names and several local ones for canyons.

MK is a wilderness advocate, but his faults are in natural anchoring and he doesn't like permits limiting the amount of people. He is a member of SUWA and is very outspoken about SUV's. The disagreements he has with SUWA have to do with permits, he agrees with them on most issues.

In many ways though he is actually more environmentally friendly than SA. SA advocates taking dogs into the wilderness and even admits a deplorable event of taking a "100 pound German Shepard down a bighorn sheep trail", prhaps the most reckless environmental situation I have seen printed in a guidebook. Studies show that even the scent of predators can cause bighorns to abandon their trails. SA also admits in his books to driving a one ton full sized van all over the place (not for car pooling, but for just him and his dog), which is a gas guzzler if there ever was one. MK usually gets 55-60 mpg and is against vehicles that get bad gas mileage.

Too bad the two couldn't get together. I think they could actually learn a lot from each other, but it will never happen.

If MK would advocate the natural anchors like SA and SA would advocate leeaving the pooch off the remote areas used by wildlife and would drive a more fuel efficient vehicle, we would have a good example to follow.



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interesting way of putting it scott. i like it.

stefan

On Sep 22, 2006, at 5:59 PM, scott patterson wrote:

> <<<Tell MK to ditch the G-Pick, do a little wilderness advocacy and > perhaps just use one of the many old names that are commonly used, > instead of making all new ones, no matter how many people are using > the old ones. >>
> Many have prodded him about the g-pick. As far as changing > names, SA is just as guilty. He has changed some of MK's names > and several local ones for canyons.
MK is a wilderness advocate, but his faults are in natural > anchoring and he doesn't like permits limiting the amount of > people. He is a member of SUWA and is very outspoken about > SUV's. The disagreements he has with SUWA have to do with > permits, he agrees with them on most issues.
In many ways though he is actually more environmentally friendly > than SA. SA advocates taking dogs into the wilderness and even > admits a deplorable event of taking a "100 pound German Shepard > down a bighorn sheep trail", prhaps the most reckless environmental > situation I have seen printed in a guidebook. Studies show that > even the scent of predators can cause bighorns to abandon their > trails. SA also admits in his books to driving a one ton full > sized van all over the place (not for car pooling, but for just him > and his dog), which is a gas guzzler if there ever was one. MK > usually gets 55-60 mpg and is against vehicles that get bad gas > mileage.
Too bad the two couldn't get together. I think they could > actually learn a lot from each other, but it will never happen.
If MK would advocate the natural anchors like SA and SA would > advocate leeaving the pooch off the remote areas used by wildlife > and would drive a more fuel efficient vehicle, we would have a good > example to follow.

> > Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. > Small Business.


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--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, scott patterson <kesscokim@...> wrote: As far as changing names, SA is just as guilty. He has changed some of MK's names and several local ones for canyons.

Do tell. Which ones? From what to what and the sourses of the originals

<<<As far as changing names, SA is just as guilty. He has changed some of MK's names and several local ones for canyons.

Do tell. Which ones? From what to what and the sourses of the originals>>>

Sure, just off the top of my head:

Canyoneering I:

1st and 2nd were published first by MK. SA changed the names to Ding and Dang. (If I remember Ramp was 3rd-but I would have to check).

Grotto Canyon in SA's book is Big Hole Draw on the USGS an BLM topo maps.

Canyoneering III:

Icabod Canyon (SA's name) is know by the locals as Sheep Canyon. SA even says this in his book.

Hydra was aslo renamed by SA for his Escalante book. He even writes in his own book that it was locally named Sheep Canyon.

Neon Canyon was known as Caverns Hollow at least as far back as the 1950's, and I even have seen 1950's photos of Golden Cathedral labeling it as Caverns Hollow. I'm not sure if SA was in fact the one whom renamed it Neon, but I have been told so. I first heard the Neon name from Steve Negler in 1988, but found out that it was the same as Caverns Hollow several years later.

These were just off the top of my head. I'm sure others could find more.



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--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, scott patterson <kesscokim@...> wrote: > 1st and 2nd were published first by MK. SA changed the names to Ding and Dang. (If I remember Ramp was 3rd-but I would have to check).

Soooo, if I am to understand, to the first to publish goes the accepted naming rights? Is 1st and 2nd Canyons Mike's names? Or do they have a history? This is a funny aside. While at our camp, I mentioned Canyon 28.1. His face grew stern, his eyes narrowed and then he said......"How was I supposed to know they were going to change the markers?" Then he ranted at a suspected mystical mythical middle manager who must have been responsible for this dasterdly act. I mean, he was genuinely upset that they corrected the mile markers. Not to mention that these canyons have names, given by members of the community and are generally accepted. He knew this. Didn't matter. Weren't his names. Thus the mile marker deal. I told him the SA name for one of the canyons he was going to do, last week. One SA had done 20 plus years earlier. His comment..."That's a stupid name....." Then he added in a different tone, "in my opinion." He talked of "a" sheep rancher he spoke to to get an old name for something. Don't remember what. I asked him, if he had a name, but everybody eventually came to know it as another name, would he change his book in the future? I was being a bit hard on him and may not have given him a chance to answer before another topic came up. I did apologize to him for the "passion" behind the way I expressed my concerns. I was thinking Squeeze and Segers Hole in particular. I got the impression, that he did not put a lot of effort into the research effort about old time names. He did ask if SA was going to write another guidebook. I told him that SA was involved in a massive, multi volume project, on the history of names and naming of places in Utah. In fact, when the Canyoneering movie guy, Jon Smith was interviewing SA, SA was interviewing him right back about the old timers near his home, by Cedar City, right down to the taking of names and locations of these folks. I get the impression that SA has been coversing with the eldsters in every town and hamlet in southern Utah for a couple of years and the stories he told of some of the history was captivating. I am not sure this book will make for an entertaining read, being it is comprehensive enough to be termed academic research, it sure will have some juicy tidbits mixed in though.

> Icabod Canyon (SA's name) is know by the locals as Sheep Canyon. SA even says this in his book.

To MK's credit, he is, or said that he was planning to include "AKA's" to the canyons he names, in the next edition, if they are generally known as something else.

> Hydra was aslo renamed by SA for his Escalante book. He even writes in his own book that it was locally named Sheep Canyon.

Both Sheep? Think you meant another name for one of the canyons.

> Neon Canyon was known as Caverns Hollow at least as far back as the 1950's, and I even have seen 1950's photos of Golden Cathedral labeling it as Caverns Hollow.

I kinda like Cavern's Hollow better. If my prefunctionary study of names in other locales, hold true here, most places have had several names, sometimes two at once, sometimes one, that gives way to others. That it is the test of time and "what people actually call something" that eventually wins out. That names are indeed fluid. So be it. May the best name win! R

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "adkramoo" <adkramoo@...> wrote: I was being a bit hard on > him and may not have given him a chance to answer before another > topic came up. > R

That's a bit of an understatement. MK was subjected to a thorough rapid-fire "grilling" for a couple of hours. He was almost never given a chance to finish what he was going to say. He stood up to the"inquisition"with good cheer and a genuine desire to state his views. He was friendly thereafter and held no grudge that I could see. He gave the impression that he had met many folks that didn't exactly agree with him and wasn't surprised at all... Ram knows this and has expressed regret that he didn't let MK get his entire say on all the topics. In Rams' defense...There was a lot to cover,and little time. MK is a good guy and has a great desire to get it right(from my observations). Dave

From the Bryce Canyon NHA director: he states that his sessions with MK always turn to bashing the government. MK asks why the NHA will not carry all his books and he is told that when the bashing is removed from the books they will be palatableto the government and can be placed in park bookstores.

His recent non-technical Colorado Plateau Hiking guide is a good example of him listening. As far as I could see there is only one place where he mentions the BLM and NPS in a negative way and that concerns the permit system, which in some ways he does have a point.

bruce from bryce

>From: "davewyo1" davewyo1@yahoo.com
Reply-To: Yahoo Canyons Group
To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Authors, G-Picks and Names >Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 01:18:20 -0000
--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "adkramoo" <adkramoo@...> wrote: > I was being a bit hard on
him and may not have given him a chance to answer before another
topic came up.
R
>That's a bit of an understatement. >MK was subjected to a thorough rapid-fire "grilling" for a couple of >hours. >He was almost never given a chance to finish what he was going to >say. >He stood up to the"inquisition"with good cheer and a genuine desire >to state his views. >He was friendly thereafter and held no grudge that I could see. >He gave the impression that he had met many folks that didn't >exactly agree with him and wasn't surprised at all... >Ram knows this and has expressed regret that he didn't let MK get >his entire say on all the topics. >In Rams' defense...There was a lot to cover,and little time. >MK is a good guy and has a great desire to get it right(from my >observations). >Dave
>

> 1st and 2nd were published first by MK. SA changed the names to Ding and Dang. (If I remember Ramp was 3rd-but I would have to check).

<<Soooo, if I am to understand, to the first to publish goes the accepted naming rights?>>>

That's what I believe. Is that the case?

<<<Is 1st and 2nd Canyons Mike's names?>>>

Yes.

<<<<Then he ranted at a suspected mystical mythical middle manager who must have been responsible for this dasterdly act. I mean, he was genuinely upset that they corrected the mile markers.>>>>

Yes, he has told me that many times too. He doesn't like the mile marker changes.

<<<Not to mention that these canyons have names, given by members of the community and are generally accepted. He knew this. Didn't matter. Weren't his names. Thus the mile marker deal. I told him the SA name for one of the canyons he was going to do, last week. One SA had done 20 plus years earlier. His comment..."That's a stupid name.....">>>

On our last trip, when we had this discussion about names he made a comment that he didn't like the Alcatraz name.

<<<He talked of "a" sheep rancher he spoke to to get an old name for something. >>>>

Yes, MIke thinks that all canyon names should have generic names or western names (i.e. rancher, sheepherder, etc.). If you named the canyon Cowboy or something, he would probably use it.

>>>> Icabod Canyon (SA's name) is know by the locals as Sheep Canyon. SA even says this in his book.

> Hydra was aslo renamed by SA for his Escalante book. He even writes in his own book that it was locally named Sheep Canyon.

Both Sheep? Think you meant another name for one of the canyons.<<<<<

No, same name, but I made a mistake (as I said it was off the top of my head). It was actually Shofar and Icabod, not Hydra and Icabod. SA changed the local names of these two (he even claims so in his book). They were known as Sheep Canyon. Perhaps SA doesn't like sheep or something, I don't know. Another error I posted was 4th Canyon was changed to Ramp. I said I thought it was 3rd Canyon. It was actually 4th

>>>>> Neon Canyon was known as Caverns Hollow at least as far back as the 1950's, and I even have seen 1950's photos of Golden Cathedral labeling it as Caverns Hollow. >>>>

<<<<<<I kinda like Cavern's Hollow better. If my prefunctionary study of names in other locales, hold true here, most places have had several names, sometimes two at once, sometimes one, that gives way to others. That it is the test of time and "what people actually call something" that eventually wins out. That names are indeed fluid. So be it. May the best name win!>>>>>

If the rumor that SA really was the one that named Neon (I have heard this only from old post in the canyons group), then the Caverns Hollow name was definately known before Neon. In his books, SA claims he started doing canyons inat the end of the 1960's.

I do know that many canyons have more than one name. Usually unintentional and just out of ignorance of earlier names I assume. Starfish/Keyhole is a good example. Since you know teh Escalante which came first; Baker or Nasty and Tight. Before SA's book came out, I had only heard Nast and Tight. Later I found out Baker were the same ones. I am tre one that stuch the Alcatraz name on a canyon, but I had no idea what people were calling it before. It was out of ignorance, not intentional. There is a difference.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the first known published names of canyons should be used. I agree with you. I was just pointing out that MK is not the only one who has done it.

I can easily find five canyons that SA has changed the names of that MK published first (the one I didn't mention in the previous post is Uneva Mine, plus SA takes credit for the Little Spotted Wolf, but it was a published name by MK several years prior), plus some local ones as well.

Other authors:

George Steck changed the name of One Hundred Fifty Mile Canyon to SOB Canyon. Thought it described the canyon better.

David Rose recently changed many names of the peaks (Utah 13ers) that have been published for over two decades by MK. DR even credits MK for his books originally getting him interested in the 13ers, so it wasn't out of ignorance. Three editions of the Utah Mountaineering Guide have been published, one in 1983, one in 1986, and one in 1997. DR published his books in 2003. Here are some of the names that were changed:

South Emmons was changed to Glacier Peak (a rather inapporpriate name for a peak without a glacier, nor even permanent snowfields if you ask me)

Henrys Fork Peak was changed to Fortress Peak

West Gunsight Peak was changed to Dome Peak

East Lovenia was changed to Quanday Peak

There are more. To sum it up, I agree 100%. First one to publish or make a name known gets the name. MK was not the only one that has done this, but he publishes a whole lot of guidebooks, and still is, so he is th one doing it the most. In the words of my four year old, I guess MK could say "Well he started it" to SA, but that would be rather silly. I do agree with using the earliest known names. If you can't find a name, then name a canyon by all means, but I don't see why names have to be changed. Just causes confusion in my book.





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--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, scott patterson <kesscokim@...> wrote:
In many ways though he is actually more environmentally friendly than SA. SA advocates taking dogs into the wilderness and even admits a deplorable event of taking a "100 pound German Shepard down a bighorn sheep trail", prhaps the most reckless environmental situation I have seen printed in a guidebook. Studies show that even the scent of predators can cause bighorns to abandon their trails.

That is pretty bad indeed. What part of what book? I need to check this out. I once saw a women with a dog in Coyote, back in 1979. Her dog disemboweled a frog every 1/4 mile and just left it on the sand, for the entire length of the canyon. When I brought it to her attention, she just sneared at me. According to Pitney, dog makes good eating, but it gives him gas. (apologies to the canine lovers- sorta)

SA also admits in his books to driving a one ton full sized van all over the place (not for car pooling, but for just him and his dog), which is a gas guzzler if there ever was one. MK usually gets 55-60 mpg and is against vehicles that get bad gas mileage.

Well this may not be as bad as its made out to be. As mentioned before, SA is mostly a backpacker, inclined to explore an entire region, over a three week period, without returning to his vehicle. The man has been most everywhere with the van, this I don't doubt, but it likely wasn't in the car camping, "romp around the place, car shuttle" style that many "sport canyoneers" use, including myself. Bet his miles per day were and are quite low.
Too bad the two couldn't get together. I think they could actually learn a lot from each other, but it will never happen.

They said the same thing about Mr. Carlson and SA and they have a working diologue going now, that included a recent interaction about bringing up a condensed Enviro page on the ACA site (Thanx to DaveWyo for the hard work, Rich for creating the room and SA for his contributions). But yes, some major hurdles still impede such a happening. SA does believe that popularizing wilderness areas creates advocates for them and credited MK for that during the movie interview process. R

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, scott patterson <kesscokim@...> wrote: > <<Soooo, if I am to understand, to the first to publish goes the > accepted naming rights?>>
> That's what I believe. Is that the case?

I don't know, but I don't agree with it. Just because one decides to publish everything in sight, shouldn't mean he gets to discard commonly accepted names or names of 1st decenders or old names that he doesn't like. He has the right to try to. Doesn't he do and publish enough unknown stuff, he gets to name? Why discard the community and pioneers names too? It is not terribly gracious, wouldn't you agree? I wonder about the level of effort he puts into exploring the history of places. When we "chatted," it came to light that he had never even heard of Katie Lee and her volumes on the plateau and Glen Canyon, in particular. How does one do ANY poking around and not hear of her? Ummmm.

> Yes, he has told me that many times too. He doesn't like the mile marker changes.

Is it just me...He doesn't like mile marker changes? I assume they were made more accurate? And he has a problem with that? Perhaps if he had used the names that so many people have accepted (Lep's), rather than......Canyon 28.1! Sheesh!

>> Yes, MIke thinks that all canyon names should have generic names or western names (i.e. rancher, sheepherder, etc.). If you named the canyon Cowboy or something, he would probably use it.

This may be wrong, but most people I talk to think that MK thinks ALL canyons not labeled on a printed map should be what he decides to call it. We are supposed to move past parallel play after pre- school. YMMV

> I do know that many canyons have more than one name. Usually unintentional and just out of ignorance of earlier names I assume. Starfish/Keyhole is a good example.

I think some places have several names. The process of one being accepted occurs over time. And many places change names over time. How many changes from Babylon to Iraq? Extreme example, I know, but you get the idea ;-)(Just kidding, do not take literally)

That the process Since you know teh Escalante which came first; Baker or Nasty and Tight. Before SA's book came out, I had only heard Nasty and Tight.

Scott is being polite in just calling them Nasty and Tight. A second 3 letter word is part of both names. It describes the butt. Not sure whether it was D. Turville or SA that did these first. Dennis is responsible for the "Nasty" names, I think. Why go potty mouth? His choice. Time will tell what they end up being called, including a likely new input from MK after he does Tight/East Baker and adds both to the next book, which is his plan (sigh). I call them the Baker's. While one is tight, the other I have never found nasty, but Dennis may have. My guess is that SA saw that the bench next to the canyons was named Baker and....Not sure

. I am tre one that stuch the Alcatraz name on a canyon, but I had no idea what people were calling it before.

We called it the unimaginative NF of TCB (North Fork of Twin Corral Box)

Alcatraz struck because people liked the name and the story associated with it. People choose.

> Don't get me wrong, I agree with the first known published names of canyons should be used. I agree with you.

I don't agree with me.;-) Publishing is not a carte blanche. Its a process that the public decides. The authors have the most influence, by calling them what they will, but even they don't get the final say. Time does tell the tale, as it should, I think Ram

<<<That is pretty bad indeed. What part of what book? I need to check this out. I once saw a women with a dog in Coyote, back in 1979. Her dog disemboweled a frog every 1/4 mile and just left it on the sand, for the entire length of the canyon. >>>

Check the Wendy and Diz story beginning on pg 197 of Canyoneering II. Check the second paragraph from the bottom on the next page for the reference to the "hundred pound German Shepard". Then, knowing the remote areas that they visited (South Escalante area), and the importance to wildlife the area is, let me know what you think!

<<<Well this may not be as bad as its made out to be. As mentioned before, SA is mostly a backpacker, inclined to explore an entire region, over a three week period, without returning to his vehicle. >>>

Yeah, maybe so. He does say in his books that he would spend all day driving just for a weekend in the canyon country until coming to his senses and moving to Hanksville. Not sure he took his van then. Probably not.

<<<They said the same thing about Mr. Carlson and SA and they have a working diologue going now, that included a recent interaction about bringing up a condensed Enviro page on the ACA site (Thanx to DaveWyo for the hard work, Rich for creating the room and SA for his contributions). But yes, some major hurdles still impede such a happening. SA does believe that popularizing wilderness areas creates advocates for them and credited MK for that during the movie interview process. >>>

Think it could ever happen?





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<<<I don't know, but I don't agree with it. Just because one decides to publish everything in sight, shouldn't mean he gets to discard commonly accepted names or names of 1st decenders or old names that he doesn't like. >>>

Notice my sentance with the or in it: First one to publish or make a name known gets the name.

With commonly accepted names, yes. However, if someone does a canyon and never tells anyone, how do we know what it is called? We have to know a name to use it.

Yes, all of commonly accepted, local, and published names shouldn't be changed in my opinion. <<<Is it just me...He doesn't like mile marker changes? I assume they were made more accurate? And he has a problem with that? >>>

He doesn't like them. They changed all the descriptions and maps in his book. Exit 129 in the Swell along I-70 is now Exit 131. If you use the mile markers for directions, you will be on the wrong turnoff for Eardly. He doesn't like the exit numbers being changed, nor the mile markers. Yes, they are more accurate now, but it does change finding roads in his books! <<<Scott is being polite in just calling them Nasty and Tight.>>>

Indeed I am. That would be one that I actually would change if I published it (not that I was planning on it). Sorry.

<<<Not sure whether it was D. Turville or SA that did these first. Dennis is responsible for the "Nasty" names, I think.>>>

Not sure. I thought they were Barb Pollea's names, but she may have gotten them from Dennis or someone else? Don't know. That's why I asked.





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--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, scott patterson <kesscokim@...> wrote: > Check the Wendy and Diz story beginning on pg 197 of Canyoneering II. Check the second paragraph from the bottom on the next page for the reference to the "hundred pound German Shepard". Then, knowing the remote areas that they visited (South Escalante area), and the importance to wildlife the area is, let me know what you think!

What do I think? I don't care for dogs and I have problems with them in the wilderness. In reading it (page 192 BTW), I believe that they didn't take the dogs on the big horn trail per say. They did that route years later, sans dogs, or so he made it sound that way. I also have no doubt that the dogs impacted the wildlife, in other ways, on this and other trips. R

<<<<What do I think? I don't care for dogs and I have problems with them in the wilderness. In reading it (page 192 BTW), I believe that they didn't take the dogs on the big horn trail per say. They did that route years later, sans dogs, or so he made it sound that way. I also have no doubt that the dogs impacted the wildlife, in other ways, on this and other trips. >>>>

Well, yes and no. There is more than just one bighorn sheep trail. The route between Red Slides and Deer Point Gap (the lower part is actually and old road, but not the upper) is also a bighorn trail as is the route mentioned with the dune and Kayenta ledges where they spied the bighorn route you are refering to.

Also, one more "minor detail" that SA fails to mention (please read the TR and look at the map to confirm) in the trip report is that the Red Slide and the entire route to Deer Point Gap is completely within the boundaries of Capitol Reef National Park, as is all of the route (which is quite a long distance) from all the way from the southern boundary of the national park all the way up to Red Slides (for those who may not know where it is, Red Slides is not far south of the trailhead to Halls Creek Narrows) along Halls Creek as well. That entire section of his route in the trip report is completely well within the boundaries of Capitol Reef National Park. Perhaps I'm no expert on National Park rules, but what is the national park's policy on taking two dogs, including one "hundred pound German Shepard" on long backcountry trips through the park including routes that follow bighorn sheep trails?



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