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Ascending - rescue related.

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by millcreek3640, Aug 1, 2007.

  1. The untimely "passing" in knotted rope has been a somber reminder re the need to "understand & know how to use" various prussic or mechanical means to set up a rescue. Also related (in part)is the "sense and skill" to ascend a line.

    Recently some friends and I compelted our 1st "major"(3rd for me)3 day canyon ascending fest. Through much!!! trial and error - various techniques and specialized gear are now part of my/our quiver as we ready for and go up (planned ascent)lines. As to rescue haul systems; I've recently been practicing various mechanical options; 3:1, 5:1.pulleys and devices. Using prussics to "run" the system, yikes. The mechanical devices (while adding weight to the load) are so functional, easy and convenient.

    I encourage all (that wish) to gain some comfort in going up a line; and learn at least rudimentary technique re raising a party. ACA teaches an excellent course re hauling/rescues and offers sessions re ascending. For any in the SL area, myself and others, would be happy to offer an "introductory assist". Mr. Thompson yahoo! we should have another get together and Hank, Greg, Ryan, Eric and others - the real pros - could aid. (And I still have much to learn). I can't tell you how much the game/dance/connection to ascending has added - by quantum amounts - to my/our overall canyon experience. Jane & Roger A and Carol P all got to share in the glee.

    I found the below article by Matt Smith re ascenders; I should add, the USHBA units are distributed by Liberty Mtn. Sports, WVC - Salt Lake County, UT, and can easily be ordered in by "a local" climbing shop. Also - as to "planned" canyon ascending (where ropes, gear and often wet suits are pulled up the line) I've found the non handled Petzl Basic (vs. a handled) "primo" in terms of ease of use and functionaly less likely to cause strain in ones wrist, lower arm, shoulder and neck - this on a 2, 4 or 500 ft. ascent. (in my view the handled are certainly more appropriate in most climbing and in possibly some canyon settings).

    I/we use a frog or modified frog system. If using the rope walker style, one might be better off with handled ascender(s) and units that attach at the ankle. Cavers know the game, and have their specialized gear; and most climbers have an "up" process too.

    The USHBA units - hyped by many, including Matt (below) are nice; But for long ascents, I still prefer the Basic; I have/do use the USHBA on a practice/rescue haul line system; grabs firmly and is so easy to slide, once "released."

    I have not used the CMI units or the Petzl Microcender; otherwise (except for the handled USBA) I have (or once had) all the units (plus a petzl mini traxion and petzl croll) listed below in Matt's piece. The (heavy) Petzl Shunt - I've not bonded to & I'm not sure I will?; and the Petzl tibloc - I gave my pair away, a long time ago. (Others "enjoy/like" those small units?) The "ridged", Wild Country Ropeman (or ropegal)are light and very functional, but don't slide "easily" up a line. Still I often use them (for unplanned ascents.)

    I'm often reminded of (climber) Mark Twight's Line: "At some point on a climb that stretches the limits, the only strength that matters - is in the mind."

    Implicit in his sage commentary (as it relates to canyon travel) is that folk have threshold skill and technique in whatever endeavor they are involved in. Five years ago (aside from wrapping a leg around a rope and pulling oneself up) I had a blank mind re ascending; and it wasn't until fairly recently that I connected with "real" rescue/haul tricks. But of course, Twight is speaking beyond simply learned technique.

    As Rich Carlson and others often remark; be safe out there; and enjoy.

    SL in SLC ______________ Below article found at www.gearreview.com/ascenders.asp (I simply copied/pasted the "opening" in Matt's well done piece.)

    Comparative Review of Ascenders By Matt Smith

    The sport of canyoneering is going downhill. You start at the top of a canyon and, with the help of ropes, descend through the drainage and exit at the mouth of the canyon. You might wonder where the need for ascenders comes in. Unfortunately, bad things happen to good people. Ropes occasionally get stuck, potholes aren't always full, and once in a while, vertical rope techniques force you to pass knots, rebelays, or other deviations. It is those situations that require the use of an ascender or rope clamp. I tried out several leading models, testing them for functionality, comfort, ease of use and rope friendliness. Here is what I found.

    Handled/Basic Ascenders: USHBA Titanium Ascenders Petzl Ascension and Basic Ascenders CMI Expedition Ascenders

    Mini Ascenders: Wild Country Ropeman Mark II Petzl Microcender

    Specialty Rope Clamps: Petzl Shunt
  2. Stan McQueen

    Stan McQueen Guest

    I would encourage those who are considering ascending ropes to read the NSS book "On Rope." It has much information about ascending systems used in caving, as well as lots of great info about SRT in general. As a caver, I have used both a ropewalker system and a frog. The frog is much lighter and quicker to rig up, but for long, free ascents, few things can beat a ropewalker (okay, a Motorized Ascending Device would do it: http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/Ascender/Motorized.html). But, somewhat heavy and also expensive.

    "On Rope" is available at the NSS bookstore at

    http://nssbookstore.org/index.php?mode=store&submode=showitem&itemnumber=07-0010

    or *http://tinyurl.com/2deknu

    Stan * millcreek3640 wrote: > The untimely "passing" in knotted rope has been a somber reminder > re the need to "understand & know how to use" various prussic or > mechanical means to set up a rescue. Also related (in part)is > the "sense and skill" to ascend a line.
    Recently some friends and I compelted our 1st "major"(3rd for me)3 > day canyon ascending fest. Through much!!! trial and error - various > techniques and specialized gear are now part of my/our quiver as we > ready for and go up (planned ascent)lines. As to rescue haul > systems; I've recently been practicing various mechanical options; > 3:1, 5:1.pulleys and devices. Using prussics to "run" the system, > yikes. The mechanical devices (while adding weight to the load) are > so functional, easy and convenient.
    I encourage all (that wish) to gain some comfort in going up a line; > and learn at least rudimentary technique re raising a party. ACA > teaches an excellent course re hauling/rescues and offers sessions > re ascending. For any in the SL area, myself and others, would be > happy to offer an "introductory assist". Mr. Thompson yahoo! we > should have another get together and Hank, Greg, Ryan, Eric and > others - the real pros - could aid. (And I still have much to > learn). I can't tell you how much the game/dance/connection to > ascending has added - by quantum amounts - to my/our overall canyon > experience. Jane & Roger A and Carol P all got to share in the glee.
    I found the below article by Matt Smith re ascenders; I should add, > the USHBA units are distributed by Liberty Mtn. Sports, WVC - Salt > Lake County, UT, and can easily be ordered in by "a local" climbing > shop. Also - as to "planned" canyon ascending (where ropes, gear and > often wet suits are pulled up the line) I've found the non handled > Petzl Basic (vs. a handled) "primo" in terms of ease of use and > functionaly less likely to cause strain in ones wrist, lower arm, > shoulder and neck - this on a 2, 4 or 500 ft. ascent. (in my view > the handled are certainly more appropriate in most climbing and in > possibly some canyon settings).
    I/we use a frog or modified frog system. If using the rope walker > style, one might be better off with handled ascender(s) and units > that attach at the ankle. Cavers know the game, and have their > specialized gear; and most climbers have an "up" process too.
    The USHBA units - hyped by many, including Matt (below) are nice; > But for long ascents, I still prefer the Basic; I have/do use the > USHBA on a practice/rescue haul line system; grabs firmly and is so > easy to slide, once "released."
    I have not used the CMI units or the Petzl Microcender; otherwise > (except for the handled USBA) I have (or once had) all the units > (plus a petzl mini traxion and petzl croll) listed below in Matt's > piece. The (heavy) Petzl Shunt - I've not bonded to & I'm not sure I > will?; and the Petzl tibloc - I gave my pair away, a long time ago. > (Others "enjoy/like" those small units?) The "ridged", Wild Country > Ropeman (or ropegal)are light and very functional, but don't > slide "easily" up a line. Still I often use them (for unplanned > ascents.)
    I'm often reminded of (climber) Mark Twight's Line: "At some point > on a climb that stretches the limits, the only strength that > matters - is in the mind."
    Implicit in his sage commentary (as it relates to canyon travel) is > that folk have threshold skill and technique in whatever endeavor > they are involved in. Five years ago (aside from wrapping a leg > around a rope and pulling oneself up) I had a blank mind re > ascending; and it wasn't until fairly recently that I connected > with "real" rescue/haul tricks. But of course, Twight is speaking > beyond simply learned technique.
    As Rich Carlson and others often remark; > be safe out there; and enjoy.
    SL in SLC > ______________ > Below article found at > www.gearreview.com/ascenders.asp > (I simply copied/pasted the "opening" in Matt's well done piece.)
    Comparative Review of Ascenders > By Matt Smith
    The sport of canyoneering is going downhill. You start at the top of > a canyon and, with the help of ropes, descend through the drainage > and exit at the mouth of the canyon. You might wonder where the need > for ascenders comes in. Unfortunately, bad things happen to good > people. Ropes occasionally get stuck, potholes aren't always full, > and once in a while, vertical rope techniques force you to pass > knots, rebelays, or other deviations. It is those situations that > require the use of an ascender or rope clamp. I tried out several > leading models, testing them for functionality, comfort, ease of use > and rope friendliness. Here is what I found.
    Handled/Basic Ascenders: > USHBA Titanium Ascenders > Petzl Ascension and Basic Ascenders > CMI Expedition Ascenders
    Mini Ascenders: > Wild Country Ropeman Mark II > Petzl Microcender
    Specialty Rope Clamps: > Petzl Shunt
  3. >From: "millcreek3640" swl1515@gmail.com
    As to rescue haul >systems; I've recently been practicing various mechanical options; >3:1, 5:1.pulleys and devices. Using prussics to "run" the system, >yikes. The mechanical devices (while adding weight to the load) are >so functional, easy and convenient.
    I encourage all (that wish) to gain some comfort in going up a line; >and learn at least rudimentary technique re raising a party. ACA >teaches an excellent course re hauling/rescues and offers sessions >re ascending.

    Spent last Saturday in CC with Rich and four others in a Self-Rescue course. Practiced changing from ascending to rappelling; rappelling to ascending and building 3 to 1, 5 to 1 haul systems for partners/other parties that are stuck on a rope. Our equipment was:

    2 tiblocs 2 biners 2 prussicks or a canyon quick draw

    Easy to set up initially and then we switched to a self-minding system using the tibloc. quite cool and they only weigh 1-2 ozs.

    Also learned to ascend in opposite mode, foot connection above the harness connection and used my Piranha to do so.

    Now to practice, practice, and practice some more.

    bruce from bryce

    _______________ Tease your brain--play Clink! Win cool prizes! http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2
  4. hank moon

    hank moon Guest

    And...an even more betterer book is "Alpine Caving Techniques" - also available at NSS bookstore... hank

    On 8/1/07, Stan McQueen smcqueen@contentwatch.com> wrote:
    I would encourage those who are considering ascending ropes to read the > NSS book "On Rope." It has much information about ascending systems used
  5. Kurt

    Kurt Guest

    Hi Bruce if it will quit raining here I was looking forward to just that--practice. I would imagine this has flushed all Zion canyons. Was nice meeting you last week. Kurt ----- Original Message ----- From: bruce silliman To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 8:10 PM Subject: RE: [from Canyons Group] Ascending - rescue related.



    >From: "millcreek3640" swl1515@gmail.com> > As to rescue haul >systems; I've recently been practicing various mechanical options; >3:1, 5:1.pulleys and devices. Using prussics to "run" the system, >yikes. The mechanical devices (while adding weight to the load) are >so functional, easy and convenient. > >I encourage all (that wish) to gain some comfort in going up a line; >and learn at least rudimentary technique re raising a party. ACA >teaches an excellent course re hauling/rescues and offers sessions >re ascending.

    Spent last Saturday in CC with Rich and four others in a Self-Rescue course. Practiced changing from ascending to rappelling; rappelling to ascending and building 3 to 1, 5 to 1 haul systems for partners/other parties that are stuck on a rope. Our equipment was:

    2 tiblocs 2 biners 2 prussicks or a canyon quick draw

    Easy to set up initially and then we switched to a self-minding system using the tibloc. quite cool and they only weigh 1-2 ozs.

    Also learned to ascend in opposite mode, foot connection above the harness connection and used my Piranha to do so.

    Now to practice, practice, and practice some more.

    bruce from bryce

    ________ Tease your brain--play Clink! Win cool prizes! http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2





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  6. Kurt

    Kurt Guest

    We also set up a biner blocked system,created a 6:1 external haul and converted it to a figure 8 contingency. Who says you can't rig a biner block into contingency;) Kurt ----- Original Message ----- From: bruce silliman To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 8:10 PM Subject: RE: [from Canyons Group] Ascending - rescue related.



    >From: "millcreek3640" swl1515@gmail.com> > As to rescue haul >systems; I've recently been practicing various mechanical options; >3:1, 5:1.pulleys and devices. Using prussics to "run" the system, >yikes. The mechanical devices (while adding weight to the load) are >so functional, easy and convenient. > >I encourage all (that wish) to gain some comfort in going up a line; >and learn at least rudimentary technique re raising a party. ACA >teaches an excellent course re hauling/rescues and offers sessions >re ascending.

    Spent last Saturday in CC with Rich and four others in a Self-Rescue course. Practiced changing from ascending to rappelling; rappelling to ascending and building 3 to 1, 5 to 1 haul systems for partners/other parties that are stuck on a rope. Our equipment was:

    2 tiblocs 2 biners 2 prussicks or a canyon quick draw

    Easy to set up initially and then we switched to a self-minding system using the tibloc. quite cool and they only weigh 1-2 ozs.

    Also learned to ascend in opposite mode, foot connection above the harness connection and used my Piranha to do so.

    Now to practice, practice, and practice some more.

    bruce from bryce

    ________ Tease your brain--play Clink! Win cool prizes! http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2





    ------------

    Teach InfoWest Spam Trap if this mail is spam: Spam Not spam Forget previous vote
  7. same here. maybe we can all get together for a canyon prior to the rendezvous.

    bruce

    >From: "Kurt" cougar@netutah.com
    Reply-To: Yahoo Canyons Group
    To: <Yahoo Canyons Group
    Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Ascending - rescue related. >Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 20:23:13 -0600
    Hi Bruce > if it will quit raining here I was looking forward to just >that--practice. I would imagine this has flushed all Zion canyons. >Was nice meeting you last week. >Kurt > ----- Original Message ----- > From: bruce silliman > To: Yahoo Canyons Group
    Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 8:10 PM > Subject: RE: [from Canyons Group] Ascending - rescue related.

    > >From: "millcreek3640" swl1515@gmail.com

    As to rescue haul >systems; I've recently been practicing various >mechanical > options; > >3:1, 5:1.pulleys and devices. Using prussics to "run" the system, > >yikes. The mechanical devices (while adding weight to the load) are > >so functional, easy and convenient. >
    >I encourage all (that wish) to gain some comfort in going up a line; > >and learn at least rudimentary technique re raising a party. ACA > >teaches an excellent course re hauling/rescues and offers sessions > >re ascending.
    Spent last Saturday in CC with Rich and four others in a Self-Rescue >course. > Practiced changing from ascending to rappelling; rappelling to ascending > and building 3 to 1, 5 to 1 haul systems for partners/other parties that >are > stuck on a rope. Our equipment was:
    2 tiblocs > 2 biners > 2 prussicks or a canyon quick draw
    Easy to set up initially and then we switched to a self-minding system >using > the tibloc. quite cool and they only weigh 1-2 ozs.
    Also learned to ascend in opposite mode, foot connection above the >harness > connection and used my Piranha to do so.
    Now to practice, practice, and practice some more.
    bruce from bryce
    ________ > Tease your brain--play Clink! Win cool prizes! > http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2


    >------------
    Teach InfoWest Spam Trap if this mail is spam: > Spam > Not spam > Forget previous vote
    > >

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  8. Chris Reeves

    Chris Reeves Guest

    I went in and asked what to use as an ascending device and I was shown a pretty sweet system that is easy, comfortable and cheap to ascend rope. It's called Purcells Prusik. I practiced ascending the side of my house first, where I ran into a slight complication due to my own retardedness, and then Saturday I went up to the "Dixie Narrows" and ascended about a 30 foot cliff fairly easily with the system. Once I reached the top I rappelled down the rope with a munter hitch. It was a little scary the first time, but overall for my first real rope ascension it was pretty easy and comfortable. I was shown to make one loop for each foot and then a standard prusik for your harness. The nice thing about this system is it is easy to ascend two ropes at the same time or a single rope and it doesn't hurt your rope at all like other ascending devices can. The prusik knots can get a little tight and hard to slide up the rope sometimes, but overall it was pretty easy. Plus you can use the purcell's prusik to use to clip in while rigging your anchors. Still learning and practicing using it, but thanks for the recommendation!

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "bruce silliman" <weabruce@...> wrote:


    From: "millcreek3640" <swl1515@...

    As to rescue haul >systems; I've recently been practicing various mechanical > options;
    3:1, 5:1.pulleys and devices. Using prussics to "run" the system,
    yikes. The mechanical devices (while adding weight to the load) are
    so functional, easy and convenient.

    I encourage all (that wish) to gain some comfort in going up a line;
    and learn at least rudimentary technique re raising a party. ACA
    teaches an excellent course re hauling/rescues and offers sessions
    re ascending.
    Spent last Saturday in CC with Rich and four others in a Self- Rescue course. > Practiced changing from ascending to rappelling; rappelling to ascending > and building 3 to 1, 5 to 1 haul systems for partners/other parties that are > stuck on a rope. Our equipment was:
    2 tiblocs > 2 biners > 2 prussicks or a canyon quick draw
    Easy to set up initially and then we switched to a self-minding system using > the tibloc. quite cool and they only weigh 1-2 ozs.
    Also learned to ascend in opposite mode, foot connection above the harness > connection and used my Piranha to do so.
    Now to practice, practice, and practice some more.
    bruce from bryce
    _______________ > Tease your brain--play Clink! Win cool prizes! > http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2
  9. Good job Chris. I too made a system similiar and carry it with me. However, since I bought t-blocs, I just clip the pre-made prussicks into the biners on the t-blocs and it is set perfectly for my height. The purcells work fine for that emergency when you need to pass a knot or move up the rope a short distance.

    30' huh. I bet you were pretty well worn out after finishing that distance.

    bruce from bryce

    >From: "Chris Reeves" creeves@rosenbergassociates.net
    Reply-To: Yahoo Canyons Group
    To: Yahoo Canyons Group
    Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Ascending - rescue related. >Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 15:17:05 -0000
    I went in and asked what to use as an ascending device and I was >shown a pretty sweet system that is easy, comfortable and cheap to >ascend rope. It's called Purcells Prusik. I practiced ascending >the side of my house first, where I ran into a slight complication >due to my own retardedness, and then Saturday I went up to >the "Dixie Narrows" and ascended about a 30 foot cliff fairly easily >with the system. Once I reached the top I rappelled down the rope >with a munter hitch. It was a little scary the first time, but >overall for my first real rope ascension it was pretty easy and >comfortable. I was shown to make one loop for each foot and then a >standard prusik for your harness. The nice thing about this system >is it is easy to ascend two ropes at the same time or a single rope >and it doesn't hurt your rope at all like other ascending devices >can. The prusik knots can get a little tight and hard to slide up >the rope sometimes, but overall it was pretty easy. Plus you can >use the purcell's prusik to use to clip in while rigging your >anchors. Still learning and practicing using it, but thanks for the >recommendation!
    >--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "bruce silliman" <weabruce@...
    wrote:




    >From: "millcreek3640" <swl1515@...


    As to rescue haul >systems; I've recently been practicing various >mechanical
    options;
    >3:1, 5:1.pulleys and devices. Using prussics to "run" the system,
    >yikes. The mechanical devices (while adding weight to the load) >are
    >so functional, easy and convenient.


    I encourage all (that wish) to gain some comfort in going up a >line;
    >and learn at least rudimentary technique re raising a party. ACA
    >teaches an excellent course re hauling/rescues and offers sessions
    >re ascending.

    Spent last Saturday in CC with Rich and four others in a Self- >Rescue course.
    Practiced changing from ascending to rappelling; rappelling to >ascending
    and building 3 to 1, 5 to 1 haul systems for partners/other >parties that are
    stuck on a rope. Our equipment was:

    2 tiblocs
    2 biners
    2 prussicks or a canyon quick draw

    Easy to set up initially and then we switched to a self-minding >system using
    the tibloc. quite cool and they only weigh 1-2 ozs.

    Also learned to ascend in opposite mode, foot connection above the >harness
    connection and used my Piranha to do so.

    Now to practice, practice, and practice some more.

    bruce from bryce

    _______________
    Tease your brain--play Clink! Win cool prizes!
    http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2

    >

    _______________ Tease your brain--play Clink! Win cool prizes! http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2
  10. Chris Reeves

    Chris Reeves Guest

    It was definitely a workout, but that's where practice comes in handy. My biceps were a little sore the next day from pulling the prusiks up the line. I wrapped each prusik 3 times and found that 2 times would have been sufficient, so the prusiks got really tight each time I put my weight on them. I would have to loosen the knots a little to get them to slide. I know canyoneering techniques are all based on opinion and personal experiences but with the purcell's prusik system I found it easier to use one leg loop going up a wall using one leg in the loop to push yourself up the line and the other to keep your body away from the wall and to also use it to balance yourself against the wall, and then going up a freefall (which I haven't done yet, but I assume) it would be better to use the two leg loops so you don't have one leg hanging there and to also take some of the weight off of the other leg so you are using the strength of both legs, plus it will provide balance to your body when your on the line to use both legs, if that makes sense. I am definitely not a pro, or even very experienced at using this system, but this is what I found in the 2 times I have used in recently. Not only is this system easy, but it is also light, and cheap.

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "bruce silliman" <weabruce@...> wrote:
    Good job Chris. I too made a system similiar and carry it with me. > However, since I bought t-blocs, I just clip the pre-made prussicks into the > biners on the t-blocs and it is set perfectly for my height. The purcells > work fine for that emergency when you need to pass a knot or move up the > rope a short distance.
    30' huh. I bet you were pretty well worn out after finishing that distance.
    bruce from bryce

    From: "Chris Reeves" <creeves@...
    >Reply-To: Yahoo Canyons Group
    >To: Yahoo Canyons Group
    >Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Ascending - rescue related.
    Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 15:17:05 -0000

    I went in and asked what to use as an ascending device and I was
    shown a pretty sweet system that is easy, comfortable and cheap to
    ascend rope. It's called Purcells Prusik. I practiced ascending
    the side of my house first, where I ran into a slight complication
    due to my own retardedness, and then Saturday I went up to
    the "Dixie Narrows" and ascended about a 30 foot cliff fairly easily
    with the system. Once I reached the top I rappelled down the rope
    with a munter hitch. It was a little scary the first time, but
    overall for my first real rope ascension it was pretty easy and
    comfortable. I was shown to make one loop for each foot and then a
    standard prusik for your harness. The nice thing about this system
    is it is easy to ascend two ropes at the same time or a single rope
    and it doesn't hurt your rope at all like other ascending devices
    can. The prusik knots can get a little tight and hard to slide up
    the rope sometimes, but overall it was pretty easy. Plus you can
    use the purcell's prusik to use to clip in while rigging your
    anchors. Still learning and practicing using it, but thanks for the
    recommendation!


    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "bruce silliman" <weabruce@
    >wrote:







    From: "millcreek3640" <swl1515@



    As to rescue haul >systems; I've recently been practicing various
    mechanical
    > options;

    3:1, 5:1.pulleys and devices. Using prussics to "run" the system,

    yikes. The mechanical devices (while adding weight to the load)
    are

    so functional, easy and convenient.



    I encourage all (that wish) to gain some comfort in going up a
    line;

    and learn at least rudimentary technique re raising a party. ACA

    teaches an excellent course re hauling/rescues and offers sessions

    re ascending.


    Spent last Saturday in CC with Rich and four others in a Self-
    Rescue course.
    > Practiced changing from ascending to rappelling; rappelling to
    ascending
    > and building 3 to 1, 5 to 1 haul systems for partners/other
    parties that are
    > stuck on a rope. Our equipment was:


    2 tiblocs
    > 2 biners
    > 2 prussicks or a canyon quick draw


    Easy to set up initially and then we switched to a self-minding
    system using
    > the tibloc. quite cool and they only weigh 1-2 ozs.


    Also learned to ascend in opposite mode, foot connection above the
    harness
    > connection and used my Piranha to do so.


    Now to practice, practice, and practice some more.


    bruce from bryce


    _______________
    > Tease your brain--play Clink! Win cool prizes!
    > http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2




    _______________ > Tease your brain--play Clink! Win cool prizes! > http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2
  11. Stan McQueen

    Stan McQueen Guest

    Yes, when climbing up against a wall, it is useful to be able to remove one foot from the loop and use it to keep yourself away from the wall. Also very helpful when crossing the lip at the top.

    When climbing a free-hanging rope, it is good to have the extra power of both legs. You want to climb with your legs and use your arms as little as possible. On a long climb, climbers have become exhausted if they have to use their arms to stay close to the rope. A chest ascender can help, and of course an ascender attached to your harness is absolutely required. You definitely don't want to do a heel hang due to losing your grip on the rope. Few people have the strength and agility to recover from one on the first try, and even fewer have the strength to make more than one try.

    It is essential to keep your body as nearly vertical as you can, otherwise, the force used to move up the rope is a small fraction of the force actually expended. When using a system in which the feet are in loops suspended from ascenders higher up the rope, it is typical to try to bend your knees to bring your feet up under your butt, move the ascenders up, then stand up while moving the harness ascender up. This helps maximize the efficiency. In ropewalker systems and other systems with firm chest attachments to the rope, there is less tendency for the body to rotate about the center of mass. I always laugh when I see someone, usually in movies or on tv, climbing a rope ladder like a regular ladder. The only way you can do that is if the bottom end is fixed and the ladder is stretched very tight. Otherwise, you have to climb it edge on, with one foot on either side. Similarly, if you can arrange for the rope to be anchored at the bottom and kept taut, then climbing is fairly easy with most any system. That's not the usual situation, however.

    Rope climbing can be lots of fun if you're properly prepared and equipped.

    Stan

    Chris Reeves wrote: > It was definitely a workout, but that's where practice comes in > handy. My biceps were a little sore the next day from pulling the > prusiks up the line. I wrapped each prusik 3 times and found that 2 > times would have been sufficient, so the prusiks got really tight > each time I put my weight on them. I would have to loosen the knots > a little to get them to slide. > I know canyoneering techniques are all based on opinion and personal > experiences but with the purcell's prusik system I found it easier > to use one leg loop going up a wall using one leg in the loop to > push yourself up the line and the other to keep your body away from > the wall and to also use it to balance yourself against the wall, > and then going up a freefall (which I haven't done yet, but I > assume) it would be better to use the two leg loops so you don't > have one leg hanging there and to also take some of the weight off > of the other leg so you are using the strength of both legs, plus it > will provide balance to your body when your on the line to use both > legs, if that makes sense. I am definitely not a pro, or even very > experienced at using this system, but this is what I found in the 2 > times I have used in recently. Not only is this system easy, but it > is also light, and cheap. >
  12. A.J.

    A.J. Guest

    Chris,

    To your comment that sometimes the prussik knots are tight and hard to move, I'll try to describe a tip. When you tie the prussiks, there will be the a line that overlaps the two cords that come down to either your harness or leg loops. If you just push that outward with your thumb, it will loosen the prussik knot enough to slide easily. It's kind of hard to describe, hope that got the point across. Otherwise, hopefully we can cross paths sometime in the future and I'll be happy to show you some variations.

    To your point, I agree; I like prussiks because it allows you to ascend single, double, or even triple rope/cord combos unlike some ascending devices. You still need to make sure you tie them right, etc; but it's quite versitile and not a lot of weight. Always good to have at least one set per group.

    Congrats on your first ascension!

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Chris Reeves" <creeves@...> wrote:
    I went in and asked what to use as an ascending device and I was > shown a pretty sweet system that is easy, comfortable and cheap to > ascend rope. It's called Purcells Prusik. I practiced ascending > the side of my house first, where I ran into a slight complication > due to my own retardedness, and then Saturday I went up to > the "Dixie Narrows" and ascended about a 30 foot cliff fairly easily > with the system. Once I reached the top I rappelled down the rope > with a munter hitch. It was a little scary the first time, but > overall for my first real rope ascension it was pretty easy and > comfortable. I was shown to make one loop for each foot and then a > standard prusik for your harness. The nice thing about this system > is it is easy to ascend two ropes at the same time or a single rope > and it doesn't hurt your rope at all like other ascending devices > can. The prusik knots can get a little tight and hard to slide up > the rope sometimes, but overall it was pretty easy. Plus you can > use the purcell's prusik to use to clip in while rigging your > anchors. Still learning and practicing using it, but thanks for the > recommendation!
    > --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "bruce silliman" <weabruce@
    wrote:




    >From: "millcreek3640" <swl1515@


    As to rescue haul >systems; I've recently been practicing various > mechanical
    options;
    >3:1, 5:1.pulleys and devices. Using prussics to "run" the system,
    >yikes. The mechanical devices (while adding weight to the load) > are
    >so functional, easy and convenient.


    I encourage all (that wish) to gain some comfort in going up a > line;
    >and learn at least rudimentary technique re raising a party. ACA
    >teaches an excellent course re hauling/rescues and offers sessions
    >re ascending.

    Spent last Saturday in CC with Rich and four others in a Self- > Rescue course.
    Practiced changing from ascending to rappelling; rappelling to > ascending
    and building 3 to 1, 5 to 1 haul systems for partners/other > parties that are
    stuck on a rope. Our equipment was:

    2 tiblocs
    2 biners
    2 prussicks or a canyon quick draw

    Easy to set up initially and then we switched to a self-minding > system using
    the tibloc. quite cool and they only weigh 1-2 ozs.

    Also learned to ascend in opposite mode, foot connection above the > harness
    connection and used my Piranha to do so.

    Now to practice, practice, and practice some more.

    bruce from bryce

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  13. Bruce/others

    I'm happy you and your crew got the training and some experience. Rich is a fine instructor. I'd like to see that course offered in SLC. (Re your note, far below:)

    A. I assume you used a series of pulleys in your system? You make no mention of it.

    B. And, while I'm aware that Rich and others tout the light weight and ease of using tiblocs; With 8mm lines, they are not foolproof. Not so much of an issue with 9 or 10mm lines? I don't wish to enter/get into a debate re tiblocs. (I'd quess some have used tiblocs with 8mm lines or less)?)

    C. I think the "lesson" is that folk learn the "rescue" 3:1, 5:1 "principles" and then practice via different methods; prussics, super light mechanical and then possibly other mechanical. And then in the field in an emergency rescue, use what you have.

    D. I've used/practiced with all three. I carry 5-6mm prussic cords, but as it relates to self rescue, I prefer a petzl mini traxion, a 2nd grabber which use to be a "ropeman" and is now a "Basic" or a short USHBA. Pulleys are the Petzle Oscil....(sp?) and/or a BD pulley. What's best? In my book it's a big depends? What do you like, what's safe and efficient and what are you/your crew, willing to carry?

    E. Ascending systems - Hank is the one that jump started my intro to real ascending. I've since met S McQueen - A "king" of a fellow (a very fine person). Both have/had extensive experience caving. Were I to cave I'd get other specialized gear and likely use a ropewalker system. Recently I got a Petzl Pantin, foot/ankle, strap/cam that goes over my right shoe in tandem with the "left foot stirrup" "frog pedal". A modified frog and semi rope walker. In an actual canyon ascent though - where one is often sliding against a wall - having both feet attached (with one in a pantin) can at times be less efficient. There is much nuance in the (other than short distance) ascending game. One can use a climbing harness, two prussics and a foot sling; or two tibloc in place of the prussic - or one can move on from there to a caving harness and other systems. Efficiency is the name of the game on long ascents - especially when pulling up a load. Prussic and/or tibloc would be last resort tools - in my book - for a long ascent.

    Thanks Stan for the reminder re the text "On Rope", and Hank for mentioning "Alpine Caving Technique." www.karstsports.com sells caving equipment, harnesses, devices; The Petzl web site has a treasure trove of gear used for "serious" ascent and/or rescue;other isolated equip is found at Mt. Gear or BD. Another primo site: www.caves.com.

    There is "new" gear out there that is NOT mentioned in either of the books. Tip - in the canyon arena - if using a (more simple) ropewalker mode, you can stay with a climbing harness. If using the frog style, for big ascents, you NEED/want a caving harnes. Can one use the frog system with a climbing harness? Of course! But try a caving harness - with a much lower attach point - and the ascent "angle/stroke" really changes. Athletic, buff folk can "fly" up a rope, (if properly set up) via either the rope walker or even the frog system. Carry a 15-30 pound "pig" on your back though, as you go up the line - the speed and ease changes. The process is taxing. For "us" it was an easy call, to use caving harness/frog systems, for "canyon ascent fests."

    (All of this pales of course - big time - to those folk that lost homes, property, valuables and vehicles in the N Fork flood/mud debris. My heart goes out to them. I've been up/down that road maybe, a hundred times? I got calls from friends that drove past Virgin early this morning - trailer park debris and trees down all over. Nature rules.)

    In Yahoo Canyons Group, "bruce silliman" <weabruce@...> wrote: Our equipment was:

    > 2 tiblocs > 2 biners > 2 prussicks or a canyon quick draw
    Easy to set up initially and then we switched to a self-minding system using the tibloc. quite cool and they only weigh 1-2 ozs. >
  14. hank moon

    hank moon Guest

    On 8/2/07, millcreek3640 swl1515@gmail.com> wrote:

    > Were I to cave I'd get other specialized gear and likely use a ropewalker > system.

    *** No ya woodn. Friend don't let friends ropewalk!
  15. RE Hanks; "no ya woodn, friends don't let friends ropewalk.."

    That's the damage/danger of idle talk when one chats with sales folk at Karst Sports. Some say in caving they "frog," others advise "rope walking" is the only way to go. Recently (in the bottom of a Zion area cyn) I ran into a crew of 6 Boulder City, NV area guys and gals. I looked at the young leader of the gang and asked "What system, you using to go up the lines? "Ropewalker" he replied, "Why would we want to use anything else!" He was so sure of himself, and a few of the Karst Sports "cavers" have been so sure of themselves too; Don't worry, mine was idle talk. I've caving/frog/ascent systems; and it will likely be "another life" before I slide into "dark side" rope walker attire. Thanks for the warning/tip bud.

    Yes, idle talk....prussic, tibloc, purcell...one person, two persons and then the crowd is swayed. If the leader does it that way, then it's as good as gospel gold? Friends don't let friends what? Slip or waver? If folk out there wish to dabble on "short ascents" with prussic and/or tibloc (AOK), but what technique arrives when you wish to go down and then back up Boundary Cyn - some 400-500 ft.? Friends don't let friends...thank goodness Hank was along that day (long ago in cyn X); it made all the difference(future wise), otherwise (with the lopsided techniqe and system I had) I NEVER again would have said BOO to a big ascent, let alone a (two times) 400 ft. rise that crazy day.

    Wear oneself out on a 30 ft. rise? - once upon a time, I can relate. In spite of the (minor) weight, for "general unplanned ascents:" on a climbing harness, I attach a Petzl Croll at the waist; for my "single" foot ladder/pedal, attach either a rope man or a ushba. A couple of other adjustable straps, gadgets; one foot is in a pedal, the other is free. (the caving harness system is another game) And then... "Someone grab/taut the line below" and up I/we go. Did anyone say prussic or tibloc? Sure, people say it all the time, and the weight they add, "miniscule." We each choose a path (gadgets).

    Some leaders push normal 8's - I never use a normal 8 (but I use at times a pirana); I've seen other "leaders" set up rescue lines, tibloc, prussic; (zion SAR, they use lots of prussic lines); others use more mechanical units. Get serious about going up a line, the leaders/mentors I've seen, they all go mechanical. But they know how to use a prussic or tibloc ascent system too.

    Many options, many styles, and probably good to know and be able to use, different schemes. And probably good to differentiate, at times, idle talk, from actual field canyon style. Learn method A and park there? Or move on to method B, and potentially to method C? As to "serious" ascending - move maybe beyond C? Good to have rock solid mentors in this business. Thanks to Hank! Tom! Brian! Rich! Bill!, for (info, humor +) insight re gear/technique. sl in slc
  16. Stan McQueen

    Stan McQueen Guest

    Why's that? I used mine for 25 years and loved it. Even though I'm a weak little guy, I could almost always zip up the rope much faster than my companions who were using frogs or other system.

    I would agree that they wouldn't be much use in canyons, though. Too much wall time. But for long free ascents, they rule (in my book, anyway).

    Stan

    hank moon wrote: > On 8/2/07, millcreek3640 swl1515@gmail.com> wrote:

    > Were I to cave I'd get other specialized gear and likely use a ropewalker >> system. >
    > *** No ya woodn. Friend don't let friends ropewalk
  17. neena_jud

    neena_jud Guest

    I agree that the ropewalker system works very well, but not the best system in all situations. The frog is sometimes better - like if you are ascending up a tight slot, and would like to use your legs in climbing mode. The frog in that case allows you legs to spread further apart - or at least away from the rope. It is very wise to learn from all sports and cross over your experience as each situation calls for.

    And if one reads "On Rope" as suggested in a previous post, one will find references to other named systems, which are slightly different. It is a very good book. We have two editions.

    By the way, my ascending harness has a double "butt-strap" - much more comfortable to sit in for a long time, as an extememly low attachment point, and came from a company in Spain.

    Now a question - what exactly is a Purcell's prussik? We have our specific lenghts of small diameter rope for making prussik knots for emergency ascending. That's pretty inexpensive - go to your stash of rope and cut yourself two lengths... What is different about a Purcell's?

    Neena Jud Ohio/Kentucky

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, Stan McQueen <smcqueen@...> wrote:
    Why's that? I used mine for 25 years and loved it. Even though I'm a > weak little guy, I could almost always zip up the rope much faster than > my companions who were using frogs or other system.
    I would agree that they wouldn't be much use in canyons, though. Too > much wall time. But for long free ascents, they rule (in my book, anyway).
    Stan
    hank moon wrote:
    On 8/2/07, millcreek3640 <swl1515@...> wrote:



    > Were I to cave I'd get other specialized gear and likely use a ropewalker
    > system.


    > *** No ya woodn. Friend don't let friends ropewalk >
  18. neena_jud asked:

    >Now a question - what exactly is a Purcell's prussik? We have our >specific lenghts of small diameter rope for making prussik knots for >emergency ascending. That's pretty inexpensive - go to your stash of >rope and cut yourself two lengths... What is different about a >Purcell's?

    Not sure what the difference is but the setup I built was a Texas prusik, as found on page 365 of The Freedom of the hills. Double foot loop and a single for the chest harness. Works well for me either by themselves or with the t-bloc.

    bruce from bryce

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