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Ascending Boundary?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Krampus, Jul 10, 2017.

  1. Krampus

    Krampus

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    Is anyone aware of a group that rapped Boundary, left ropes on each of the anchors, then ascended back out rather than do the MIA escape?

    I'm sure its been done but would like to hear from someone that's done it. How did it go? Would you say it was harder than the exit? More rewarding?

    Thanks
  2. Bootboy

    Bootboy Atwood Gear

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    A friend of mine has done it, and Kolob. No remarkable notes about either trip.

    Rope quality, group size, and ascending proficiency are all huge variables that would effect the feasibility of the option.

    The friend of whom I speak is a fit, competent, and somewhat masochistic canyoneer though.
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  3. 2065toyota

    2065toyota

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    The MIA exit is not that bad. I see it being much slower and more difficult to ascend unless you are talking a small group that is very proficient in ascending ropes
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  4. 2065toyota

    2065toyota

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  5. Yellow Dart

    Yellow Dart It's only hubris if I fail.

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    Methinks the more efficient jug up and out would be to fix a rope on a tree along the rim somewhere post-technical, and do one big jug up and out. One of the MIA's recreational roads runs along the south rim making this easy to set; and it's the correct rim, as you'd be in the shade for the jug up. Also, with proper rigging, the road could assist in a 'runway' for those at the top to haul up everyone else down below. Looks to be 500-600'?

    Untitled.

    Last year, ol' Coreshot Cal and I found our way to the top of the falls in post-technical Kolob, a mere 1/4mi from the vehicle and only 300' gain. From there, a long rope could be set ahead of time, with a bolt somewhere halfway down to go the rest of the way to the floor (allowing two people to ascend at once).
  6. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    With Boundary running with water, the ascents could be... much more challenging than when dry.

    Tom
  7. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

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    Reminds me of leaving the skinny 8mm rope through the "eye" of the needle for the lads to jug up...

    I guess I thought it was funny...them...not so much....ha ha.
  8. W.B.

    W.B.

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    We did it in 2001 or 2002 or thereabouts. Well, actually our group went down Kolob and up Boundary and the other group went down Boundary and out Kolob to the Narrows I think. Come to think about it, not sure I've ever been down Boundary or even seen it really since it was pretty dark. Anyway, don't recall any particularly difficult parts to ascending Boundary. It's probably easier in total effort than MIA especially if someone else sets the ropes and leaves a shuttle at the top of Boundary. It was rewarding not to walk the rest of the way out. All fun, no work.

    Just a side note on MIA. Not sure what the exit there is like now after years of higher use but the autumn leaf fall obscured the use trail up MIA years ago. Still was fairly obvious to go up as there's not much freedom in the canyon but it is easier and quicker for most people to follow the trail than to navigate. If you've not been there before and are trying to get out before nighttime might want to keep it in mind.
  9. Jeff Randall

    Jeff Randall

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    Is it possible to set rebelays on the way down to get the rope out of the running water for the climb back out? Having never been to Boundary I'm not sure if it's just a free drop on the raps or has the potential for rebelays. If it's a free drop and dry, then easy day to frog out. Also, what's the rigging like since climbing a rope adds a lot of different stressors than just rappelling. If the rope is breaking a hard lip and you start jugging or frogging on it for 170' then that's a lot of sawing on the lip. Again, rebelays would be nice (if possible) to cut down on the rope bouncing and sawing.
  10. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    The MIA trail has changed very substantially in the last 15 years. It has become a LOT more well-defined, and additionally is much, much simpler to find. Still, one should not try to get out for the first time in the dark.

    Tom
  11. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    In a word, no. There are basically NO freehanging jugs, most are down a steep chute with free hanging sections. There are no rebelay spots. This is not a cave.

    You do bring up some good points. The anchors in the canyons are not set up specifically to minimize rope/rock contact. Happenstance has set it up fairly well, but not really well.

    There are a lot of reasons ascending Boundary is a bad idea. It would take carrying about 10 ropes. Bigger ropes are better for jugging (ascending); and jugging tends to tear up ropes. For people who know how to jug, the physical work is more intense, but the overall effort is less. For people who are not proficient at jugging, the physical work is way more intense and very frustrating. Overall, it is something to do with the right group as a stunt, but it is very much not an easier solution than hiking out the MIA.

    Tom
  12. Jeff Randall

    Jeff Randall

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    Jugging's a bitch on a good day. Much better ways of ascending a rope than jugging.
  13. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    I always considered "jugging" to be the general term. How do you parse the various forms?

    Tom
  14. Jeff Randall

    Jeff Randall

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    Jugging in the true use of the term is a foot loop or etrier attached to an ascender with a second ascender attached to the harness. It's a quick way to do a short distance since it's really easy to rig but is perhaps the most inefficient means of climbing a rope (although it is better than using prusiks). Variations of climbing such as adding loops for both feet, foot pantins (with catches so they don't jump off the rope), chest crolls, etc. make climbing more efficient and they also make resting during climbing less stressful. Frogging, to me, for anything under 200' is my preferred method since it's easier to pass obstructions, you can come out of one foot loop if need be to help yourself up a less than vertical wall, etc. Once it passes 200' I use a Mitchell rope walker that I modified with bungees on the basic ascender. To me, it's a little better than a double bungee rope walker since it's easier to do changeovers, pass rebelays, etc. than a double bungee rope walker and it's just as efficient and fast. From what canyoneering I've done, the mitchell and double bungee would be out since there are a lot of inclines and obstructions - better to frog or use a modified jugging technique with pantins maybe. I could see a lot of hybrid type systems being put into play with canyoneering. With that said, you can go from Mitchell to Frog in about 15 seconds if needed. Again, this is all caving stuff that we do so I'm sure there are a lot of variables in canyoneering that don't translate. My biggest concern about ascending Boundary would be the rigging and rope wear from ascending, not necessarily the climb itself. Nor would I be concerned about wear on the rope from ascenders. Good ropes are made to be climbed.
  15. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    In rock climbing, esp. Big Wall climbing, "Jugging" is usually done with two handled ascenders, each with a foot loop and attached by a daisy. Right hand, right foot, left hand, left foot. The daisy's adjusted so that at the highpoint of the ascender, the daisy comes tight, allowing for a quick rest on each stroke when needed. This system partly set up because one is also cleaning the pitch while jugging the rope, and one has to be able to pass pieces (taking the jug off and re-setting above the piece, with both jugs).

    Tom
  16. Jeff Randall

    Jeff Randall

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    Yep, totally understand that. The problem with jugging long climbs is when you rest then you are resting from your harness with no upper body support, so you have to keep an arm hung around the rope to keep you upright, or wear a chest harness that you can temporarily clip in to take a long rest. I've also found with "jugging" that people tend to use their arms to pull up as much as their feet to push, so they get wasted pretty fast. Jugging also keeps the rope away from the body more than a system that has progress capture or roller on the chest, and anytime the body is not as straight as it can be with the rope when climbing the rope, efficiency is lost in a huge way. I'm not against jugging at all. For short climbs or working around obstructions it is quick and easy. For long climbs it's just very inefficient compared to other systems. Again, boundary may not be welcoming to other systems though. Never been there.

    Edited to add: frog systems also make working around rebelays, cleaning deviations passing knots, change-overs, etc. really simple. Although it's best done attaching a separate QAS
  17. Jeff Randall

    Jeff Randall

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    1.

    From left to right: Mitchell, Frog (hard to see in the back), Double Bungee Rope Walker, Double Bungee Rope Walker (although not shown connected), Frog. Hard to see the differences in this photo, but the Mitchell only has one self advancing basic ascender above the knee with the upper handled ascender going through the chest roller (it's double over hanging down in this pic). The double bungee rope walker has ascenders at the right foot and the left knee. The frog has a chest croll and one handled ascender with double foot loops attached to it. The croll helps a LOT to keep you close to the rope and make it more efficient - so you get more climbing mileage out of each stroke.
  18. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Different strokes for different sports.

    T
  19. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

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    I can't think of a single drop in Boundary that has any freehanging sustained steepness to it. Confirmed by looking at photo's. Its all ramp to steep ramp, around some corners, drop to pothole then continue drop.

    My bet is that a frog type system (or rope walker) wouldn't be optimal. It ain't a pit drop.

    Just not sustained high angle in unbroken terrain.
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  20. Kuenn

    Kuenn

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    This is not me trying to belabor or turn this thread into a tit-for-tat caving vs canyoneering ascending challenge. AND it's certainly not soley directed at BrianSLC's comment, but I get the impression that there is a flawed impression that cave ascending is done in ideal, free hanging, lots of elbow room, smooth wall, pit drops... NOT hardly. Although they are preferred, they are not the norm, one learns to play the hand that is dealt - regardless of the venue or technique.

    Every ascending system has its pros and cons. As a general rule the more ascending you do the more refined your technique and methods. I've not ascended Boundary but if I did (planned) I would be doing so with a rope walker - even with the less than ideal ascent terrain. And fairly certain could turn around and bounce it again and be less fatigued than trudging out the MIA once. YMMV
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