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Ape Canyon descent in Washington

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by Ken Leibert, Oct 16, 2011.

  1. Ken Leibert

    Ken Leibert Guest

    Last week three students from Lewis and Clark College in Portland made the first documented

    descent of Ape Canyon near Mount St.Helens  in Washington.  This involved about 20 raps and a bivouac.  You can see photos and a fascinating trip report  at

    http://canyoneeringnorthwest.com/ApeCanyon.html Ape Canyon was on the "Seven Undescended"  page at www.canyoneeringnorthwest.com It has now been removed.  What undescended Northwest canyon should take its place on that most coveted list?   Any suggestions?

    Ken Leibert
  2. TomJones

    TomJones Guest

    Awesome!!!

    Tom

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, Ken Leibert <canyoneeringnorthwest@...> wrote:
    Last week three students from Lewis and Clark College in Portland made the first documented
    descent of Ape Canyon near Mount St.Helens  in Washington.  This involved about 20 raps and a bivouac.  You can see photos and a fascinating trip report  at
    http://canyoneeringnorthwest.com/ApeCanyon.html
    Ape Canyon was on the "Seven Undescended"  page at www.canyoneeringnorthwest.com > It has now been removed.  What undescended Northwest canyon should take its place on that most > coveted list?   Any suggestions?
    Ken Leibert
    > >
  3. chris

    chris Guest

    Dipper or Sulphide Creeks, if you want them to stay on the list for a while.

    -Chris

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, Ken Leibert <canyoneeringnorthwest@...> wrote:
    Last week three students from Lewis and Clark College in Portland made the first documented
    descent of Ape Canyon near Mount St.Helens  in Washington.  This involved about 20 raps and a bivouac.  You can see photos and a fascinating trip report  at
    http://canyoneeringnorthwest.com/ApeCanyon.html
    Ape Canyon was on the "Seven Undescended"  page at www.canyoneeringnorthwest.com > It has now been removed.  What undescended Northwest canyon should take its place on that most > coveted list?   Any suggestions?
    Ken Leibert
    > >
  4. bary bruner

    bary bruner Guest

    Just another reminder to add 2 days exit time for any trip...especially when friends/family might be worried that you're overdue. Better to be stranded/wounded/in need of rescue than to needlessly alarm authorities, who could respond by limiting future access. Most delayed exits are result of time miscalculation, not injury. Let's add plenty of time to our exit estimates; giving we adventurers the chance of 'self rescue' before officials are contacted.

  5. TomJones

    TomJones Guest

    One also could, ya know, just could, do some canyoneering before going off and attempting a first descent... but where would the adventure be in that.

    I think you missed the point, Bary. They pretty much expected and planned to get into trouble, and were pretty clear that if they did, they wanted and expected to be rescued pretty quick.

    Tom

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, bary bruner <barylbruner@...> wrote:
    Just another reminder to add 2 days exit time for any trip...especially when friends/family might be worried that you're overdue. Better to be stranded/wounded/in need of rescue than to needlessly alarm authorities, who could respond by limiting future access. Most delayed exits are result of time miscalculation, not injury. Let's add plenty of time to our exit estimates; giving we adventurers the chance of 'self rescue' before officials are contacted.
    > >
  6. Wayne Burns

    Wayne Burns Guest

    Tom, I loved the line in the TR "This canyoneering stuff can take longer than you expect" or something like that. I enjoyed the sense of humor with which it was written. I have to admit I was wincing at the single 150' rope they took into an exploration which apparently contains a lot of vertical. Great & cool adventure, very happy they made it out safely; unfortunate that the SAR was involved.

    Cheers,

    Wayne



    To: Yahoo Canyons Group From: ratagonia@gmail.com Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:04:04 &#43;0000 Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Ape Canyon descent in Washington





    One also could, ya know, just could, do some canyoneering before going off and attempting a first descent... but where would the adventure be in that.

    I think you missed the point, Bary. They pretty much expected and planned to get into trouble, and were pretty clear that if they did, they wanted and expected to be rescued pretty quick.

    Tom

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, bary bruner <barylbruner@...> wrote:
    Just another reminder to add 2 days exit time for any trip...especially when friends/family might be worried that you're overdue. Better to be stranded/wounded/in need of rescue than to needlessly alarm authorities, who could respond by limiting future access. Most delayed exits are result of time miscalculation, not injury. Let's add plenty of time to our exit estimates; giving we adventurers the chance of 'self rescue' before officials are contacted.
    > >
  7. TomJones

    TomJones Guest

    Reminds me of Low's Gully:

    http://www.amazon.com/Descent-into-Chaos-Doomed-Expedition/dp/1857531477/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1318956582&sr=8-1

    T

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, Wayne Burns <waynewburns@...> wrote:
    > Tom, I loved the line in the TR "This canyoneering stuff can take longer than you expect" or something like that. I enjoyed the sense of humor with which it was written. I have to admit I was wincing at the single 150' rope they took into an exploration which apparently contains a lot of vertical. Great & cool adventure, very happy they made it out safely; unfortunate that the SAR was involved.
    Cheers,
    Wayne

    > To: Yahoo Canyons Group
    From: ratagonia@... > Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:04:04 &#43;0000 > Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Ape Canyon descent in Washington


    > One also could, ya know, just could, do some canyoneering before going off and attempting a first descent... but where would the adventure be in that.
    I think you missed the point, Bary. They pretty much expected and planned to get into trouble, and were pretty clear that if they did, they wanted and expected to be rescued pretty quick.
    Tom
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, bary bruner <barylbruner@> wrote:

    Just another reminder to add 2 days exit time for any trip...especially when friends/family might be worried that you're overdue. Better to be stranded/wounded/in need of rescue than to needlessly alarm authorities, who could respond by limiting future access. Most delayed exits are result of time miscalculation, not injury. Let's add plenty of time to our exit estimates; giving we adventurers the chance of 'self rescue' before officials are contacted.






    > >
  8. bary bruner

    bary bruner Guest

    I don't believe I missed the point.

    My point is this: An outing with a high chance of rescue contributes to the public's cry to more heavily restrict access for adventure.

    Climb, canyoneer, cave, bike, sail, ski within your abilities or risk having the freedom to pursue these activities disappear.



    ________________________________ From: TomJones ratagonia@gmail.com> To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 9:50 AM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Ape Canyon descent in Washington

      Reminds me of Low's Gully:

    http://www.amazon.com/Descent-into-Chaos-Doomed-Expedition/dp/1857531477/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1318956582&sr=8-1

    T

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, Wayne Burns <waynewburns@...> wrote:
    > Tom, I loved the line in the TR "This canyoneering stuff can take longer than you expect" or something like that. I enjoyed the sense of humor with which it was written. I have to admit I was wincing at the single 150' rope they took into an exploration which apparently contains a lot of vertical. Great & cool adventure, very happy they made it out safely; unfortunate that the SAR was involved.
    Cheers,
    Wayne

    > To: Yahoo Canyons Group
    From: ratagonia@... > Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:04:04 &#43;0000 > Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Ape Canyon descent in Washington


    > One also could, ya know, just could, do some canyoneering before going off and attempting a first descent... but where would the adventure be in that.
    I think you missed the point, Bary. They pretty much expected and planned to get into trouble, and were pretty clear that if they did, they wanted and expected to be rescued pretty quick.
    Tom
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, bary bruner <barylbruner@> wrote:

    Just another reminder to add 2 days exit time for any trip...especially when friends/family might be worried that you're overdue. Better to be stranded/wounded/in need of rescue than to needlessly alarm authorities, who could respond by limiting future access. Most delayed exits are result of time miscalculation, not injury. Let's add plenty of time to our exit estimates; giving we adventurers the chance of 'self rescue' before officials are contacted.






    > >
  9. TomJones

    TomJones Guest

    I believe we agree on all points.

    My opinion (FWIW) is that those dudes should be cited, and billed for the "rescue".

    Tom

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, bary bruner <barylbruner@...> wrote:
    I don't believe I missed the point.
    My point is this: An outing with a high chance of rescue contributes to the public's cry to more heavily restrict access for adventure.
    > Climb, canyoneer, cave, bike, sail, ski within your abilities or risk having the freedom to pursue these activities disappear. >
  10. desertres

    desertres Guest

    It takes time to form a rescue....and from what Ive read, the groups would rather get the news sooner rather than later....I dont think many make a move until after 24 hours anyway.

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, bary bruner <barylbruner@...> wrote:
    Just another reminder to add 2 days exit time for any trip...especially when friends/family might be worried that you're overdue. Better to be stranded/wounded/in need of rescue than to needlessly alarm authorities, who could respond by limiting future access. Most delayed exits are result of time miscalculation, not injury. Let's add plenty of time to our exit estimates; giving we adventurers the chance of 'self rescue' before officials are contacted.
    > >
  11. desertres

    desertres Guest

    > They pretty much expected and planned to get into trouble, and were pretty clear that if they did, they wanted and expected to be rescued pretty quick.
    Tom

    I tv-watched some 'pros' doing what you just said. Ice-climbing...first ascent.....1200ft waterfalls. The way I gather it, failing is par for the course in climbing....I mean a fall is not viewed like it is in canyoneering. Just sayin...you want to apply canyoneering standards to non-canyoneers? Or we just apply non-outdoor standards to everyone and just sit at home?

    I think its better to view it as they relied on climbing in a canyon. Hopefully a powerful lesson to stick to climbing when relying on climbing standards.
  12. TomJones

    TomJones Guest

    Not getting up the climb is not failing, and generally does not require a rescue. Climbers usually can rap down if they can't make the moves.

    Having Rescue called out is failing.

    jes' Sayin'...

    Tom

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "desertres" <desertres@...> wrote:
    > They pretty much expected and planned to get into trouble, and were pretty clear that if they did, they wanted and expected to be rescued pretty quick.

    Tom
    I tv-watched some 'pros' doing what you just said. Ice-climbing...first ascent.....1200ft waterfalls. The way I gather it, failing is par for the course in climbing....I mean a fall is not viewed like it is in canyoneering. Just sayin...you want to apply canyoneering standards to non-canyoneers? Or we just apply non-outdoor standards to everyone and just sit at home?
    I think its better to view it as they relied on climbing in a canyon. Hopefully a powerful lesson to stick to climbing when relying on climbing standards. >
  13. Did someone actually recommend "adding two days exit time for any trip? Wow. Posibly the most dangerous advice given that I've heard/read in a LONG time.

    It is extrewmely frustrating for SAR to get a call saying "my husband/wife/business partner is overdue...by two plus days". Chances of a safe and effective SAR diminish rapidly with each passing day. One person waited 4 days to contact us about her missing boyfriend. I couldn't believe it. BTW, he didn't make it.

    The old saying "plan your hike and hike your plan" sums it up pretty nicely. "Time is precious" may apply here too.

    Decent advice: Not only tell people exactly when you plan on getting back/making contact, you could/should also tell them EXACTLY (approximate here) where you will be and EXACTLY who to contact, should you not return or call. So many people left to make these calls aren't even sure who or where to call or where the missing party actually went, which is very frustrating for them. "The Grand Staircase" is a pretty typical answer (1.9 million acres). Hello.

    Anyhow, not trying to be judgemental, just thought some terrible advice had been dispensed on the group. My apologies for not having the wit/charm/intelect of the typical post.

    Have fun, play safe and be free! Rick Green







    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, Wayne Burns <waynewburns@...> wrote:
    > Tom, I loved the line in the TR "This canyoneering stuff can take longer than you expect" or something like that. I enjoyed the sense of humor with which it was written. I have to admit I was wincing at the single 150' rope they took into an exploration which apparently contains a lot of vertical. Great & cool adventure, very happy they made it out safely; unfortunate that the SAR was involved.
    Cheers,
    Wayne

    > To: Yahoo Canyons Group
    From: ratagonia@... > Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:04:04 &#43;0000 > Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Ape Canyon descent in Washington


    > One also could, ya know, just could, do some canyoneering before going off and attempting a first descent... but where would the adventure be in that.
    I think you missed the point, Bary. They pretty much expected and planned to get into trouble, and were pretty clear that if they did, they wanted and expected to be rescued pretty quick.
    Tom
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, bary bruner <barylbruner@> wrote:

    Just another reminder to add 2 days exit time for any trip...especially when friends/family might be worried that you're overdue. Better to be stranded/wounded/in need of rescue than to needlessly alarm authorities, who could respond by limiting future access. Most delayed exits are result of time miscalculation, not injury. Let's add plenty of time to our exit estimates; giving we adventurers the chance of 'self rescue' before officials are contacted.






    > >
  14. mike_dallin

    mike_dallin Guest

    I'm pretty surprised at the reaction of the trip report. Armchair forum Monday morning quarterbacking at its finest!

    From what I can see, these guys told people where they were going, laid plans in case they were late. They took longer than they thought (something many folk on here have done, sometimes even resulting in a rescue initiation), they bedded down, they got down safe the next morning. SAR was activated but hadn't committed heavy resources to it yet (e.g., the helicopter didn't even take off). They took their lumps from the sheriff and committed to making a donation to SAR. They showed personal responsibility, and aside for a poor time estimate, it looks to me like they did everything right. Good for them!

    I'm psyched about this descent because it shows the spirit of exploration is still alive, the idea that you see a spot on the map, you grab your gear and just go. That seems to be getting rarer and rarer in this technological and internet connected world. Good for them, and congrats on a cool looking first descent!

    M

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "excursionsofescalante" <rick@...> wrote:

    Did someone actually recommend "adding two days exit time for any trip? Wow. Posibly the most dangerous advice given that I've heard/read in a LONG time.
    It is extrewmely frustrating for SAR to get a call saying "my husband/wife/business partner is overdue...by two plus days". Chances of a safe and effective SAR diminish rapidly with each passing day. One person waited 4 days to contact us about her missing boyfriend. I couldn't believe it. BTW, he didn't make it.
    The old saying "plan your hike and hike your plan" sums it up pretty nicely. "Time is precious" may apply here too.
    Decent advice: Not only tell people exactly when you plan on getting back/making contact, you could/should also tell them EXACTLY (approximate here) where you will be and EXACTLY who to contact, should you not return or call. So many people left to make these calls aren't even sure who or where to call or where the missing party actually went, which is very frustrating for them. "The Grand Staircase" is a pretty typical answer (1.9 million acres). Hello.
    Anyhow, not trying to be judgemental, just thought some terrible advice had been dispensed on the group. My apologies for not having the wit/charm/intelect of the typical post.
    Have fun, play safe and be free! > Rick Green



    > --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, Wayne Burns <waynewburns@> wrote:


    Tom, I loved the line in the TR "This canyoneering stuff can take longer than you expect" or something like that. I enjoyed the sense of humor with which it was written. I have to admit I was wincing at the single 150' rope they took into an exploration which apparently contains a lot of vertical. Great & cool adventure, very happy they made it out safely; unfortunate that the SAR was involved.

    Cheers,

    Wayne




    To: Yahoo Canyons Group
    > From: ratagonia@
    Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:04:04 &#43;0000
    Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Ape Canyon descent in Washington






    One also could, ya know, just could, do some canyoneering before going off and attempting a first descent... but where would the adventure be in that.

    I think you missed the point, Bary. They pretty much expected and planned to get into trouble, and were pretty clear that if they did, they wanted and expected to be rescued pretty quick.

    Tom

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, bary bruner <barylbruner@> wrote:


    Just another reminder to add 2 days exit time for any trip...especially when friends/family might be worried that you're overdue. Better to be stranded/wounded/in need of rescue than to needlessly alarm authorities, who could respond by limiting future access. Most delayed exits are result of time miscalculation, not injury. Let's add plenty of time to our exit estimates; giving we adventurers the chance of 'self rescue' before officials are contacted.



    >







    >
    >
  15. TomJones

    TomJones Guest

    Why? What do you think an Internet Forum is for Mike, if not to voice opinions on the activities of foolish youth?

    Don't you consider their descent foolish? Yes, they pulled it off, remarkably. Conditions were benign.

    You and I going in with a team of experienced canyoneers would have had considerable concern about the viability of the descent, would have taken a lot more gear, anticipated a bivy, and not had an early callout time for SAR. And we would have found the canyon considerably easier than anticipated, and gotten out early.

    Based on their skillset (ie, very little), the information available on the canyon and conditions (ie, very little), and the equipment they chose to bring, I would say the most probable outcome of this venture was two dead kids. I am very glad that did not happen, but... And yes they pulled it off, so I guess they are "Bold" and "Adventurous", rather than "Foolish" and "Dead".

    "God looks after Fools and Little Children" - folk saying

    Tom

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "mike_dallin" <dallin@...> wrote:
    I'm pretty surprised at the reaction of the trip report. Armchair forum Monday morning quarterbacking at its finest! >
  16. nonot8946

    nonot8946 Guest

    Hardly the spirit of adventure when you plan to have the rescue squad be your plan B, and your "adventure" results in them getting deployed when you run into minor difficulties that are basically the result of poor planning.

    No previous canyoneering experience, first descent attempt, only 1 150 ft rope? God smiles on fools and canyoneers.

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "mike_dallin" <dallin@...> wrote:
    I'm pretty surprised at the reaction of the trip report. Armchair forum Monday morning quarterbacking at its finest!
    From what I can see, these guys told people where they were going, laid plans in case they were late. They took longer than they thought (something many folk on here have done, sometimes even resulting in a rescue initiation), they bedded down, they got down safe the next morning. SAR was activated but hadn't committed heavy resources to it yet (e.g., the helicopter didn't even take off). They took their lumps from the sheriff and committed to making a donation to SAR. They showed personal responsibility, and aside for a poor time estimate, it looks to me like they did everything right. Good for them!
    I'm psyched about this descent because it shows the spirit of exploration is still alive, the idea that you see a spot on the map, you grab your gear and just go. That seems to be getting rarer and rarer in this technological and internet connected world. Good for them, and congrats on a cool looking first descent!
    > M
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "excursionsofescalante" <rick@> wrote:



    Did someone actually recommend "adding two days exit time for any trip? Wow. Posibly the most dangerous advice given that I've heard/read in a LONG time.

    It is extrewmely frustrating for SAR to get a call saying "my husband/wife/business partner is overdue...by two plus days". Chances of a safe and effective SAR diminish rapidly with each passing day. One person waited 4 days to contact us about her missing boyfriend. I couldn't believe it. BTW, he didn't make it.

    The old saying "plan your hike and hike your plan" sums it up pretty nicely. "Time is precious" may apply here too.

    Decent advice: Not only tell people exactly when you plan on getting back/making contact, you could/should also tell them EXACTLY (approximate here) where you will be and EXACTLY who to contact, should you not return or call. So many people left to make these calls aren't even sure who or where to call or where the missing party actually went, which is very frustrating for them. "The Grand Staircase" is a pretty typical answer (1.9 million acres). Hello.

    Anyhow, not trying to be judgemental, just thought some terrible advice had been dispensed on the group. My apologies for not having the wit/charm/intelect of the typical post.

    Have fun, play safe and be free!
    Rick Green








    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, Wayne Burns <waynewburns@> wrote:



    > Tom, I loved the line in the TR "This canyoneering stuff can take longer than you expect" or something like that. I enjoyed the sense of humor with which it was written. I have to admit I was wincing at the single 150' rope they took into an exploration which apparently contains a lot of vertical. Great & cool adventure, very happy they made it out safely; unfortunate that the SAR was involved.


    Cheers,


    Wayne






    > To: Yahoo Canyons Group

    From: ratagonia@
    > Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:04:04 &#43;0000
    > Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Ape Canyon descent in Washington









    > One also could, ya know, just could, do some canyoneering before going off and attempting a first descent... but where would the adventure be in that.


    I think you missed the point, Bary. They pretty much expected and planned to get into trouble, and were pretty clear that if they did, they wanted and expected to be rescued pretty quick.


    Tom


    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, bary bruner <barylbruner@> wrote:



    Just another reminder to add 2 days exit time for any trip...especially when friends/family might be worried that you're overdue. Better to be stranded/wounded/in need of rescue than to needlessly alarm authorities, who could respond by limiting future access. Most delayed exits are result of time miscalculation, not injury. Let's add plenty of time to our exit estimates; giving we adventurers the chance of 'self rescue' before officials are contacted.

















    >
  17. mike_dallin

    mike_dallin Guest

    I guess I just don't feel the need to act like an expert on everything in a public forum, esp. after the fact.

    M

    *cough* psychological damage *cough*

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "TomJones" <ratagonia@...> wrote:
    Why? What do you think an Internet Forum is for Mike, if not to voice opinions on the activities of foolish youth?
    Don't you consider their descent foolish? Yes, they pulled it off, remarkably. Conditions were benign.
    You and I going in with a team of experienced canyoneers would have had considerable concern about the viability of the descent, would have taken a lot more gear, anticipated a bivy, and not had an early callout time for SAR. And we would have found the canyon considerably easier than anticipated, and gotten out early.
    Based on their skillset (ie, very little), the information available on the canyon and conditions (ie, very little), and the equipment they chose to bring, I would say the most probable outcome of this venture was two dead kids. I am very glad that did not happen, but... And yes they pulled it off, so I guess they are "Bold" and "Adventurous", rather than "Foolish" and "Dead".
    "God looks after Fools and Little Children" - folk saying
    Tom
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "mike_dallin" <dallin@> wrote:

    I'm pretty surprised at the reaction of the trip report. Armchair forum Monday morning quarterbacking at its finest!
    >
  18. Mike-

    Monday morning quarterbacking? Not on my part. Didn't/don't have the time to get into this "first descent". Just had an opinion on the statement that people should allow two extra days for SAR notification, to allow self rescue. Again, bad advice.

    I too am surprised by the reaction to this and the many other near misses I occasionally read about here….the lack of action. People dig into the ACA's tax status and other (to me) less important topics, but say very little about inexperienced folks, seemingly underequipped, getting in over their heads. Is safety not one of, the most important topics?

    Blast me, tell me how little I know..doesn't matter. It's how I feel.

    Cheers, Rick Green









    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "mike_dallin" <dallin@...> wrote:
    I'm pretty surprised at the reaction of the trip report. Armchair forum Monday morning quarterbacking at its finest!
    From what I can see, these guys told people where they were going, laid plans in case they were late. They took longer than they thought (something many folk on here have done, sometimes even resulting in a rescue initiation), they bedded down, they got down safe the next morning. SAR was activated but hadn't committed heavy resources to it yet (e.g., the helicopter didn't even take off). They took their lumps from the sheriff and committed to making a donation to SAR. They showed personal responsibility, and aside for a poor time estimate, it looks to me like they did everything right. Good for them!
    I'm psyched about this descent because it shows the spirit of exploration is still alive, the idea that you see a spot on the map, you grab your gear and just go. That seems to be getting rarer and rarer in this technological and internet connected world. Good for them, and congrats on a cool looking first descent!
    > M
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "excursionsofescalante" <rick@> wrote:



    Did someone actually recommend "adding two days exit time for any trip? Wow. Posibly the most dangerous advice given that I've heard/read in a LONG time.

    It is extrewmely frustrating for SAR to get a call saying "my husband/wife/business partner is overdue...by two plus days". Chances of a safe and effective SAR diminish rapidly with each passing day. One person waited 4 days to contact us about her missing boyfriend. I couldn't believe it. BTW, he didn't make it.

    The old saying "plan your hike and hike your plan" sums it up pretty nicely. "Time is precious" may apply here too.

    Decent advice: Not only tell people exactly when you plan on getting back/making contact, you could/should also tell them EXACTLY (approximate here) where you will be and EXACTLY who to contact, should you not return or call. So many people left to make these calls aren't even sure who or where to call or where the missing party actually went, which is very frustrating for them. "The Grand Staircase" is a pretty typical answer (1.9 million acres). Hello.

    Anyhow, not trying to be judgemental, just thought some terrible advice had been dispensed on the group. My apologies for not having the wit/charm/intelect of the typical post.

    Have fun, play safe and be free!
    Rick Green








    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, Wayne Burns <waynewburns@> wrote:



    > Tom, I loved the line in the TR "This canyoneering stuff can take longer than you expect" or something like that. I enjoyed the sense of humor with which it was written. I have to admit I was wincing at the single 150' rope they took into an exploration which apparently contains a lot of vertical. Great & cool adventure, very happy they made it out safely; unfortunate that the SAR was involved.


    Cheers,


    Wayne






    > To: Yahoo Canyons Group

    From: ratagonia@
    > Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:04:04 &#43;0000
    > Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Ape Canyon descent in Washington









    > One also could, ya know, just could, do some canyoneering before going off and attempting a first descent... but where would the adventure be in that.


    I think you missed the point, Bary. They pretty much expected and planned to get into trouble, and were pretty clear that if they did, they wanted and expected to be rescued pretty quick.


    Tom


    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, bary bruner <barylbruner@> wrote:



    Just another reminder to add 2 days exit time for any trip...especially when friends/family might be worried that you're overdue. Better to be stranded/wounded/in need of rescue than to needlessly alarm authorities, who could respond by limiting future access. Most delayed exits are result of time miscalculation, not injury. Let's add plenty of time to our exit estimates; giving we adventurers the chance of 'self rescue' before officials are contacted.

















    >
  19. flutedwalls

    flutedwalls Guest

    The young men on this adventure. From one angle, adventurous, bright, bold and a bit ignorant and inexperienced. From another angle, negligent, reckless and immune to the concerns relating to SAR and their own mortality.

    In a mountain or alpine setting, where folk are doing multi day or week excursions, I dont' think it's unreasonable (in some circumstances) to wait two days before calling out the SAR forces. In one or two day mountain settings though, a one day window is likely more appropriate.

    In a technical canyon venture on the CP, I think a half day, or no more than a day window is often appropriate. In mountain canyon settings, I would think each venture has it's parameters and rather than generalize, some SAR's might be speedier and some wait.

    Each posters experience seems to brightly guide views. Aren't so many experiences so different though and don't the players along with the venture, color the critique? What if experienced folk had done the trip, and then for what ever reason had stalled and were late? Those are different facts, yes. Re the current situation though; in my view - the kids were reckless.

    Interesting that some have a heightened interest, after the fact, in events like this. And some that report, have even been in near or actual canyon drama settings where SAR was or nearly was called out; or alternatively, where accidents did or nearly did happen. Seems, it's easier to most often talk about others.

    Talk of ACA is kinda a dead horse. But didn't that decade long operation have an impact on and touch just how many? (it's tax status was really never mentioned, I don't believe) And if the interest for one is passe, does that discount others past heightened concern? And if other commercial guiding operations are around - and there are many - if it were found that (hypothetically) one lacked proper insurance coverage, it was operating with a lapsed permit or there were other regulatory concerns; would that be of interest to any? Begs the question really, what top do folk wish to daily spin and where does insight, interest and passion reside?

    No wonder we humans jon together in bands and clans with like interests and styles. Politics, religion and even nature and the outdoors. A walk in the abstract wild or a recreational romp with posers that plaster the event to the masses? Trying to get along with the diversity of others, or dictating positions and styles? We each get up in the morning, and are who we are and the detail and sometimes drama of each day is the narrative of life.

    NW Canyoneering and now Ringtail and Neon splashed to the masses. The experts (skill, technique)and safety were emphasized. That's good. And the land and canyons? Who knows what the future holds? And, who knows when the next canyon SAR will occur, and then just what will the experts opine?
  20. TomJones

    TomJones Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "mike_dallin" <dallin@...> wrote:
    I guess I just don't feel the need to act like an expert on everything in a public forum, esp. after the fact.
    M
    *cough* psychological damage *cough* >

    Psycho Damage. A good example of "the experts" being foolish. Our traditional call-out time of 10 am the next day being in place. Sitting in the canyon at 8 am, teeth chattering, I had a concern that 10 am might not be early enough for SAR to get to our general area, figure out how to get to the rim above us, find us and extract us - because I did not think we could survive another night, especially if it rained again. In retrospect, rain might have been a problem, but yes another night would have been unpleasant, but survivable. SAR called out at 10 am, rescinded an hour later.

    Story: http://www.math.utah.edu/~sfolias/canyontales/tale/?i=psychoD

    Quite a few fun tales of misadventure there, on Stefan's fine compilation of stories.

    Tom
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