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Anchor Quiz 09252020B

Discussion in 'Tech Tips and Gear' started by ratagonia, Sep 26, 2020.

  1. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    What is right and what is wrong with this anchor and this rigging?

    Pine004.
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  2. hobo_climber

    hobo_climber

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    way too much webbing for a start... Galv rapide (?) on stainless glue-in.

    ugly for sure... but will you die? probably not!
  3. Rapterman

    Rapterman

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    A couple of years ago we did some tensile testing of 'canyon style' webbing anchors, like these.
    As long as the webbing utilized is one inch tubular (either milspec or 'climb spec') the tensile strength is huge- over 5,000 lbs for the web part.
    As long as the bolt hangers are not sharp, using quicklinks for web-to-hangar does not improve the strength- you might as well save some hardware
    and tie the webbing directly to the hangers. Assuming newish webbing in good condition you are more likely to extract or break the bolts
    or bust a rusty quick link before rupturing the webbing.
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  4. Rapterman

    Rapterman

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    hmmm what is the current simplest method for posting pictures?
    :bored:
  5. PutUpYourDux

    PutUpYourDux

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    Click "upload a file", select the file to upload, once it appears at the bottom of your typing window select "full image" to display the image within your post (instead of just a thumbnail).
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  6. NevadaSlots

    NevadaSlots

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    When talking about plated-galvanized(very similar) quicklinks on stainless hangers/bolts, as far as my knowledge goes that is not a problem as the quick link acts as a sacrificial anode when the two metals interact thus preventing corrosion on the more critical and less removable bolt/hanger. It is much more of an issue when combining hangers and mechanical bolts/hardware of differing metals, as it compromises the whole anchor set up and is not as simply removed and evaluated as a quicklink. This article provides some great info especially the paragraph that starts with,”When the two dissimilar metals...”https://dmmclimbing.com/Knowledge/August-2011/Anodising (I realize this article is mainly about anodizing aluminum, yet some principles transfer over to steel and what not)
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
  7. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    What electrolyte solution are you using??

    That rusty upper Rapide I attribute to a flood coming over and sanding the zinc off it. It was simple surface rust (but I removed it, replaced it with the unnecessary rapide on the lower glue-in bolt.

    Note that all anchors must be viewed in context - the context that this is Pine Creek, and is done by very many inexperienced persons. So this and the other are set up to discourage people from messing with them. With limited success.

    Tom
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  8. Scott Patterson

    Scott Patterson

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    I don't see much "right" with the anchor other than it likely wouldn't kill anyone.

    Wrong:

    Bright blue webbing (should be black or tan)
    Too many knots
    Webbing too long
    Aluminium rap ring (?) for extremely popular canyon (at least it looks like one in the photo)
    Lower bolt not utilized
    I can't see what's going on, but the bolts could have been placed a few inches lower so as to avoid the need and drag for that rapide. Plus the webbing would wear less.

    As mentioned, nothing there would likely kill someone, but it could be done better.
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
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  9. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Thank you Scott. I think I know what you meant by this sentence, but it does not parse well: "I don't see much "right" with the anchor other than it likely would kill anyone."

    The webbing IS too long, which makes the start of this particular rappel more difficult.

    It is an Aluminum Rap ring, but it is a SOLID Aluminum Rap Ring which shows wear but has a lot of life left. Perhaps not optimum, but it would last until next spring.

    The lower bolt is utilized in the rigging, though it is hard to see in this photo.

    Upper Bolt too high - well... Yes, I put that in on top to defeat the tendency of getting on rappel to unscrew the mechanical bolt. Probably would have been better to put another glue in lower. Perhaps a better rigging would be to use a separate piece of webbing to backup the Glue In to the top bolt, and then have rigging on the lower bolt (like two rapid links) - however, my faith in the masses that do Pine Creek to not MESS with it is low. I was happy to see it rigged with only one piece of webbing, rather than the usual Zion Rainbow!

    Tom
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  10. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Galvanizing is a method of plating, and is generally used for zinc on steel... perhaps the most common plating.

    Tom
  11. Scott Patterson

    Scott Patterson

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    Typo. I meant that it likely wouldn't kill anyone, even though it isn't great.
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  12. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    What I left behind. All our black webbing had been used up, so this dark green will have to do. The yellow sling is my safety-clip in point.

    Pine005.
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  13. Kuenn

    Kuenn

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    Nit picking...bolt placement can often be tricky. Often you know where it should have been placed post-installation.
    upload_2020-9-28_14-47-31.

    I try to avoid this scenario (when possible) - where movement/friction of the rapide causes increased wear on the webbing. Shelf-life for this sling is going to be short. Sometimes, it's unavoidable.

    Not knowing anymore about the anchor than the pic, X or Y would have been a better spot, IMO. You might say, the geometry is better where it is for reducing load on the anchor. I would counter with, it depends.
  14. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Hindsight, 20-20.

    The upper bolt is not actually loaded when the person is rappelling, but will tend to be "loaded" before, as the person shifts over onto rappel. If I had thought of it, I should have put more slack in that upper line. Looks like the knot tails could be adjusted a little to get more slack there. Maybe used a smaller rapid link.

    The white spot (Y) is the epoxy fill where the bolt USED to be. That was a 1/2" mechanical bolt that unscrewed itself in its first weekend due to the shifting involved in people getting on rappel. The Glue-in was a replacement for it.

    Bolts should be 2X length away from the nearest other bolt and at least 1X length away from a block edge, so...

    Also hard put a hanger-type bolt on uneven rock (X). The existing glue-in is also as far to the right as an anchor can be without the rope (below) crossing an edge, so "to the left" is better.

    Tom
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  15. Scott Patterson

    Scott Patterson

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    Is this one of those blue vs gold dress things? The sling looks red to me. No complaint, but it doesn't look green.
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  16. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Hmmm. Dark colors differentiating between red and green and REMEMBERING such are not my strong points. And the light was murky. And the sun was in my eyes...
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
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  17. Craig

    Craig Feeling My Way

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    I'd be interested in knowing if the average canyon user out there would have replaced that webbing. I think I would replace it because of how difficult it would be to inspect all those knots. I don't think I'd be afraid of the slightly rusted quicklinks unless the gates wouldn't close.
  18. Kuenn

    Kuenn

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    Not that it matters, because it shouldn't (but often does), what is the depth of the rappel?
  19. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    The rappel is on the surface.

    (har har har)

    It is a 90 foot rappel, free hanging from the point of launch.

    Tom
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  20. Bootboy

    Bootboy Atwood Gear

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    Depth? Spotted the caver...
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