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"Adventure" paper, black ink smudges?

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by David Campen, Mar 2, 2006.

  1. David Campen

    David Campen Guest

    I print topo maps onto National Geographic "Adventure Paper" using an HP inkjet printer. The paper is some sort of synthetic fiber so that it is waterproof and tear resistant. The colored inkjet inks on this paper are also very water resistant. The black inkjet ink though never seems to dry and smudges significantly. Has anyone found any ways to reduce this smudging - blotting with a sheet of blotting paper, drying with a hairdryer etc. ?
  2. Lee Eismann

    Lee Eismann Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "David Campen" <dcampen@...> wrote:
    I print topo maps onto National Geographic "Adventure Paper" using an > HP inkjet printer. The paper is some sort of synthetic fiber so that > it is waterproof and tear resistant. The colored inkjet inks on this > paper are also very water resistant. The black inkjet ink though never > seems to dry and smudges significantly. Has anyone found any ways to > reduce this smudging - blotting with a sheet of blotting paper, drying > with a hairdryer etc. ?

    There can be many causes.

    What kind of HP inkjet are you using? What kind of cartridges or ink - OEM, after-market, or refill?

    When, how, and where do you see the smudging?

    Does your printer control software allow for increased drying times or decreased ink volume? If so, have you tried modifying the settings accordingly?
  3. David Campen

    David Campen Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Lee Eismann" <eismanle@...> wrote:
    There can be many causes.
    What kind of HP inkjet are you using? What kind of cartridges or > ink - OEM, after-market, or refill?
    When, how, and where do you see the smudging?
    Does your printer control software allow for increased drying times or > decreased ink volume? If so, have you tried modifying the settings > accordingly? > I use HP branded ink. The printer model is less than a year old, it uses their recent inks but I don't remember the part numbers at the moment.

    Increased drying times via printer control wouldn't seem to be of any use since the ink is smudging even days later when I handle the map. Perhaps decreasing ink volume would be of some help.

    The colored inks are nicely water and smudge resistant on this paper so it seems to be a property of the black ink.

    My previous HP inkjet printer, several years old and also with an older ink parts numbers exhibited the same characteristics.
  4. I use 15 and 17 cartridges for my 842 printer - no problems so far.
  5. brcrcwr

    brcrcwr Guest

    I tried Adventure Paper (Teslin) a couple of seasons ago and was disappointed. Before buying any, I contacted National Geographic to ask generally how to obtain the best result, and specifically which printers they recommended. They said that "any HP ink jet printer" would work.

    I was looking for a photo printer anyway and was interested in the HP 8450. HP had no specific information on Teslin paper but suggested a number of printer adjustments that minimize ink deposition. I bought an 8450 and have been pleased with its photo output. On Teslin paper, however, even the lowest deposition settings had the same result: 1) black ink smudged even when thoroughly dry; 2) when the paper is folded and saturated, black ink transfers between contacting surfaces, often to such an extent that text is rendered illegible; 3) magenta ink bleeds through the paper profusely.

    Neither HP nor National Geographic had any suggestions for making this paper work with the 8450. A friend recently tried Teslin in a Canon iP5200 printer and had the same problem. I understand that some printers (especially photo printers like the 8450) use pigments for permanence, whereas other printers use dyes. Perhaps a dye-based process would produce more durable output on Teslin.

    Anyway, I've gone back to printing on office paper and stuffing the folded maps into waterproof vinyl sleeves. Less than ideal, but cheap. Because few people have wide-carriage printers, I've been using 8 1/2 X 14 paper to allow me to e-mail stuff that other people can print readily. Maps on legal-sized paper are a lot easier use in the field than a USGS 7.5 topo when you're trying to plot a bearing or waypoint--they don't need as large a flat space and don't catch the wind as easily. I can almost always fit a grade III route on a single map sheet, sometimes grade IV. I also have a Word template that fits text into eight linked text boxes, so that I can print a map on one side, a route description on the other, and fold the whole thing into a 3 1/2 x 4 1/4 rectangle without having text spanning a crease.

    If you're content with printing only a color map on one side of a Teslin sheet, I suppose the smearing might not be too much of a nuisance. But at nearly a buck a sheet, I don't think the stuff is worth the money.

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "David Campen" <dcampen@...> wrote:
    I print topo maps onto National Geographic "Adventure Paper" using an > HP inkjet printer. The paper is some sort of synthetic fiber so that it > is waterproof and tear resistant. The colored inkjet inks on this paper > are also very water resistant. The black inkjet ink though never seems > to dry and smudges significantly. Has anyone found any ways to reduce > this smudging - blotting with a sheet of blotting paper, drying with a > hairdryer etc. ? >
  6. Lee Eismann

    Lee Eismann Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "David Campen" <dcampen@...> wrote:

    > I use HP branded ink. The printer model is less than a year old, it > uses their recent inks but I don't remember the part numbers at the > moment.

    I wanted to know the printer's model # to see if it was one of the better ones - not all HP models, and their corresponding inks, are created equal. Some come with pigment-based inks (better), others with dye-based inks.

    > Increased drying times via printer control wouldn't seem to be of > any use since the ink is smudging even days later when I handle the > map. Perhaps decreasing ink volume would be of some help.

    That's why I asked about *when* the smudging occurred. But given the nature of the NG paper (see a description of the Teslin product at http://tinyurl.com/ppyk9), I would reduce ink volume - start low and increase until you get the quality you want.

    You could also try drying the paper in a warm oven, but this will take some experimentation of your part. Note: Do not put the paper directly on the racks.

    > The colored inks are nicely water and smudge resistant on this paper > so it seems to be a property of the black ink.
    My previous HP inkjet printer, several years old and also with an > older ink parts numbers exhibited the same characteristics.

    As is documented in this Review of the NG paper, different models of HP printers can exhibit differences in the quality of their printing and the occurrence of smudging:

    http://tinyurl.com/fdqec
  7. davewyo1

    davewyo1 Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "brcrcwr" <bewmisc@...> wrote: >1) > black ink smudged even when thoroughly dry; 2) when the paper is > folded and saturated, black ink transfers between contacting > surfaces, often to such an extent that text is rendered illegible; >3) > magenta ink bleeds through the paper profusely.
    > --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "David Campen" <dcampen@> wrote: >Has anyone found any ways to > reduce
    this smudging -

    I'm not sure about printer inks but cheaper artists colors are now made from synthetics(phthalocyanine)and blacks are made from carbon.I doubt that any standard HP ink cartridge uses a synthetic black. You could try spraying an artists acrylic fixative.It may work for a short time. http://tinyurl.com/hk227 Dave
  8. Tom Jones

    Tom Jones Guest

    Reviews of Adventure paper are available here:

    http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/Software/Waterproof%20Paper/

    They might have something useful to the discussion...

    Tom

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Lee Eismann" <eismanle@...> wrote:
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "David Campen" <dcampen@> wrote:
    > I use HP branded ink. The printer model is less than a year old, it
    uses their recent inks but I don't remember the part numbers at the
    moment.
    I wanted to know the printer's model # to see if it was one of the > better ones - not all HP models, and their corresponding inks, are > created equal. Some come with pigment-based inks (better), others > with dye-based inks.

    Increased drying times via printer control wouldn't seem to be of
    any use since the ink is smudging even days later when I handle the
    map. Perhaps decreasing ink volume would be of some help.
    That's why I asked about *when* the smudging occurred. But given the > nature of the NG paper (see a description of the Teslin product at > http://tinyurl.com/ppyk9), I would reduce ink volume - start low and > increase until you get the quality you want.
    You could also try drying the paper in a warm oven, but this will take > some experimentation of your part. Note: Do not put the paper > directly on the racks.

    The colored inks are nicely water and smudge resistant on this paper
    so it seems to be a property of the black ink.

    My previous HP inkjet printer, several years old and also with an
    older ink parts numbers exhibited the same characteristics.
    As is documented in this Review of the NG paper, different models of > HP printers can exhibit differences in the quality of their printing > and the occurrence of smudging:
    http://tinyurl.com/fdqec
  9. David Campen

    David Campen Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "brcrcwr" <bewmisc@...> wrote:
    I tried Adventure Paper (Teslin) a couple of seasons ago and was > disappointed. > ... > If you're content with printing only a color map on one side of a > Teslin sheet, I suppose the smearing might not be too much of a > nuisance.

    The colored inks work really good for me. I have had topos in my leg pocket while wading through water and the colored inks are very resistant.

    For text I can change the color so that it doesn't use black ink but the elevation lines on the topos print in black and I don't know how I would change that.
  10. David Campen

    David Campen Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Lee Eismann" <eismanle@...> wrote:
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "David Campen" <dcampen@> wrote:
    > I wanted to know the printer's model # to see if it was one of the > better ones - not all HP models, and their corresponding inks, are > created equal. Some come with pigment-based inks (better), others > with dye-based inks. > Thanks, I will check tonight.
    That's why I asked about *when* the smudging occurred. But given > the nature of the NG paper (see a description of the Teslin product > at http://tinyurl.com/ppyk9), I would reduce ink volume - start low > and increase until you get the quality you want. > I will try this.

    > You could also try drying the paper in a warm oven, but this will > take > some experimentation of your part. Note: Do not put the paper > directly on the racks. > I will probably try this too but given that the black ink still smudges days later I am not hopefull.
    > As is documented in this Review of the NG paper, different models of > HP printers can exhibit differences in the quality of their printing > and the occurrence of smudging:
    http://tinyurl.com/fdqec
    Great, I might even be willing to buy a new (inexpensive) printer if I could get one that would produce non-smudging printouts on waterproof paper.
  11. Tom Jones

    Tom Jones Guest

    Ya know, who you really otta talk to is:

    National Geographic Maps 1-800-962-1643

    topo@ngs.org

    They charge enough for the stuff, I think they should be able to offer a lot of experience on how to get it to work for you.

    And, ya know, #2, I carry the Adventure paper on my website, http://canyoneeringusa.com

    Tom
  12. David Campen

    David Campen Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Tom Jones" <ratagoni@...> wrote:
    Ya know, who you really otta talk to is:
    National Geographic Maps > 1-800-962-1643
    topo@...
    They charge enough for the stuff, I think they should be able to > offer a lot of experience on how to get it to work for you. Yep, in an ideal world, but in this world I pretty much figured that talking to them would be a waste of time.

    I find that there is little support by the vendors for either Garmin (Mapsource) or NG (Topo!) software so I figure that the support for an ancillary product will be close to non-existant.
  13. Tom Jones

    Tom Jones Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "David Campen" <dcampen@...> wrote:
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Tom Jones" <ratagoni@> wrote:

    Ya know, who you really otta talk to is:
    National Geographic Maps
    1-800-962-1643
    > Yep, in an ideal world, but in this world I pretty much figured that talking to them would be a waste of time.
    I find that there is little support by the vendors for either Garmin (Mapsource) or NG (Topo!) software so I figure that the support for an ancillary product will be close to non-existant. > Or, you could give it a try, and THEN complain about how LAME they are.

    Tom
  14. David Campen

    David Campen Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Tom Jones" <ratagoni@...> wrote: > Or, you could give it a try, and THEN complain about how LAME they > are. > I didn't mention them; I was just responding to your obvious advice. What, you somehow think that it never occured to me to contact them?

    And why shouldn't I comment about them? I have corresponded with NG re their software and their responses were lame.
  15. brcrcwr

    brcrcwr Guest

    I had looked at the BackpackGearTest reviews (and others) before purchasing any Adventure Paper. They persuaded me that it was worth a try; my subsequent experiences persuade me otherwise.

    A protective coating is an interesting possibility. Such coatings are sometimes used on regular topos. However, it seems to me that the point of coughing up the money for Adventure Paper was that I wouldn't HAVE to treat the map to protect it. And if coatings are the answer, it's odd that NG doesn't know about it.

    It sounds like Dave's enjoying the same runaround I did a couple of years ago. I communicated with NG repeatedly, at length, via e-mail, phone, and eventually postal mail. They're nice enough when you finally get them on the phone, but they didn't have any solutions to problems with Adventure Paper.

    It's possible they've learned something useful since then, but it doesn't sound likely. Teslin is a product that NG buys from Pittsburgh Paint & Glass, repackages, marks up, and sells as Adventure Paper. Their commitment to the product seems to go no further than marketing.

    In the spirit of science, however, I've e-mailed PP&G's Teslin rep to see whether the manufacturer has any helpful hints. She's referred my questions to R&D. I'll let you know if I hear anything useful or entertaining.

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "David Campen" <dcampen@...> wrote:
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Tom Jones" <ratagoni@> wrote:
    Or, you could give it a try, and THEN complain about how LAME they
    are.
    > I didn't mention them; I was just responding to your obvious advice. > What, you somehow think that it never occured to me to contact them?
    And why shouldn't I comment about them? I have corresponded with NG re > their software and their responses were lame. >
  16. David Campen

    David Campen Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "brcrcwr" <bewmisc@...> wrote:
    I had looked at the BackpackGearTest reviews (and others) before > purchasing any Adventure Paper. They persuaded me that it was worth > a try; my subsequent experiences persuade me otherwise. > I really like the stuff, even at a buck a sheet. And the colored inks work great which is what is so tantalizing; if the black in was just as smudge proof I would be ecstatic.

    > A protective coating is an interesting possibility. Such coatings > are sometimes used on regular topos. I think the most promising suggesting was that I try decreasing the amount of black ink that the printer is laying down. And for text I will use something other than black leaving only the contour lines needing black ink.

    > It sounds like Dave's enjoying the same runaround I did a couple of > years ago. I communicated with NG repeatedly, at length, via e- > mail, phone, and eventually postal mail. They're nice enough when > you finally get them on the phone, but they didn't have any > solutions to problems with Adventure Paper. > Actually it is more their Topo! software and support that I have been underwhelmed with but that is a topic for another thread.

    > It's possible they've learned something useful since then, but it > doesn't sound likely. Teslin is a product that NG buys from > Pittsburgh > Paint & Glass, repackages, marks up, and sells as Adventure Paper. > ... > In the spirit of science, however, I've e-mailed PP&G's Teslin rep > to see whether the manufacturer has any helpful hints. She's > referred my questions to R&D. I'll let you know if I hear anything > useful or entertaining. I looked at the website through the link that was posted. They just might have some interesting advice.
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