Acceptable weather for canyon descent, dressing clove hitches necessary, swift water glove rec's?

I was on a trip this past weekend and my friend wanted to drop into a canyon when there were slightly dark clouds all around due to it being a warm front. It did rain lightly both days. I've read completely conflicting information on this topic and wanted to know what's acceptable weather to canyoneer in.

This same dude set up retrievable rope anchors using clove hitches on a medium size carabiner. The hitches were not dressed, but held on the rappels. I've always been taught to use a large pear biner and to dress the hitch or to use an overhand knot on the biner but my friend's concern is that an overhand is just more "stuff" for the rope to get caught in when you pull the rope.

I went to Ouray's canyon fest last year to do swiftwater canyons and it was amazing. Any glove recommendations for very cold swift water canyons? My glove gear was not ideal.

Thanks so much y'all!

A lot to unpack here, really 3 different posts, the first 2 of which have been addressed over, and over again.

That said, regarding weather, there are a hundred things that factor into the decision to abort a canyon. So to be brief, if you have doubts or that creeping "I dunno guys..." feeling, just walk away. It's not worth it. Simply isn't. Swallow the pride before it becomes hubris, and go do something else.

With gloves, personally, be sure to not get something that restricts dexterity too much (5mm neoprene), as canyoneering can be a tricky endeavor, and you may need those fingers to pull off some delicate things.

I'll leave the last question to those who enjoy the debates on knots and ropes and the best way to Christian Grey...

Thank you for your reply Yellow Dart.

I know the 1st question has been answered quite a bit. As you could imagine as a newer canyoneer the multitude of conflicting answers is confusing. The glove question as well I haven't been given what I would consider useful answers to.

The hitch question I'm simply in the dark on.

Yeah, what he said...

1. Good choice. With considerable experience, you can refine those choices, but there is very little knowledge that can be passed along via words.

2. There are always more than one right way to do things, and often more than one BEST way. Yes, *I* think using a fat biner and doing a triple clove is the best way to do a block, usually. Other methods not as reliable.

3. Keeping your hands warm conflicts with the goal to maintain control on rappels. Warm gloves tend to inhibit grip on the rope, both by restricting hand motion, and by having a slippery surface. I have found that the gardening gloves are a good compromise, and a lot of it is conditioning your hands to work in cold conditions. http://www.store.canyoneeringusa.co.../PowerGrab-Gloves/p/10914079/category=2490822 You can also wear dishwashing gloves INSIDE these, and that makes them considerably warmer. I have neoprene gloves I use sometimes in canyons with lots of swimming, that I take off for the rappels, so I have control. Crazy.

Tom

X2. I've walked away from trips that ran w/o incident, and others that ran with significant consequences. While I might have enjoyed being part of the latter's survival story on some level, I don't regret any of my choices to walk away. As has often been said, a good survival (and fun) skill to develop is to always have a Plan B. Having a backup plan helps relieve the peer pressure that has so often led to mishap and tragedy, while preserving the chance of having an enjoyable day (and other days after that).

Hard to comment on the hitch question w/o more info. Got any pictures of the setup your friend used? And what do you mean by "dressed" ?

This is very helpful, thank you.

My girlfriend and i will pick up some of those gloves Tom, thank you for the recommendation.

Hank Moon, I don't have any photos, but I can describe it pretty well. His clove hitches were sloppy. Due to using a stiff rope and medium biner it's harder to get the clove hitch to line up as it should and look like a clove hitch. A lot of the times his hitches were partially not on the spine of the biner. He simply didn't take the time to make the knot look nice. When I say dressed, I mean just making a hitch or knot look nice. I was always taught to make my hitches and knots look nice. I always questioned whether a sloppy looking figure 8 knot for instance would hold just as well as a nice looking one.

like this?

RE clove hitch: I thought that it was losing favor among canyoneers due to some release incidents, like could have happened in Tom's pic above.
Some use a triple clove and some use a constrictor hitch. I like the constrictor hitch and don't think it is any more bulky or hard to tie than a regular clove hitch. Also, it's totally bomber.

I was thinking the constrictor has a place where it is three layers thick, yes?

T

ratagonia, EXACTLY like that.

EXACTLY like that.

well, right over the top, yes... but figuratively speaking it's not IMO enough of an increase in bulk to worry about...

In addition to a desire for rigor in these discussions, I am thinking that the point of triple layer gives it a slightly greater tendency to abrade the sheath at that location, possibly leading to a coreshot.

I have seen it tied and see that it is simple. However, the "installed base" of clove hitches means that almost anyone can inspect the triple clove effectively, while very few people can inspect the constrictor effectively.

But we've been over this before; and likely will again. I fully support your eagerness for that particular knot, and your right to campaign for its adoption.

Tom

edit: corrected spelling.

works for me......

If it flashes while you're in it, that's usually but not always unacceptable.

Seriously though, this is a 50 shades of gray question. I've been in a half dozen canyons when it started raining, only one of which had any significant running water (coming over the sides in Keyhole.) I have certainly entered canyons when there were lots of clouds and when rain is in the forecast. Maybe even a few times when we felt a few drops on the approach.

I drew the line on a recent trip when it was raining hard when it came time to enter the canyon partially because I felt uncomfortable (and mostly to facilitate transportation for the rest of the group). The rest of the group dropped in halfway down the canyon and exited without problems. The canyon apparently has many wide areas to get out of flow if it should occur. That canyon (like every other canyon in the area) had significant flow within an hour of them exiting.

So many factors that go into it:

1) The forecast- is it supposed to get better or worse
2) What you see in the sky- all clouds are not created equal
3) What is actually falling- it takes a certain amount of water to flash a canyon
4) The catchment area- can it absorb much water, is it a large area
5) Possible canyon exits, places where you can get out of the watercourse etc
6) How long you'll be in the canyon- although even a short period of risk exposure is no guarantee (see Keyhole 7 for details)
7) Reasons why you canyoneer. Not sure the best way to explain this, but when I see someone climbing something I think is insane, I say "some people climb for different reasons than I do." I guess it's just risk tolerance and where you're at in life and how much you're willing to risk to do that canyon that day. But having backed off a few peaks and a few canyons, I can assure you that peak/canyon isn't going anywhere. It'll be there to do another day.