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+Re:+Re: 8mm accessory cord and rapping?

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by Faerthen Felix, Aug 7, 2009.

  1. Hi,

    Relax, Charly. Don't browbeat the poor guy, or me ;)

    I'm not advocating the use of accessory cord in canyons--the guy knows it's not recommended, but he asked for anecdotes about using accessory cord for rappelling. I offered my experience after no one else responded. Doubtlessly, canyon cord is more durable & a better choice [as several others responded before you], but short rapping on strong accessory cord is not a death sentence if you take care & baby your line, especially over edges.

    >For a patroller who mostly just carries the stuff and will only use it once to escape a chair lift it is probably ok.

    When did I say I only used it once? It's not disposable, for crying out loud. I rapped the same 7mm cord off chairlifts or equivalent at least half a dozen times a season for probably 9 years. I also carried the same cord for very occasional use as a hand line in easy canyons or on difficult mountain bike & ski tours. I think I even used it to Z-drag a snowmobile out of a hole once & I know I used it as a snowmobile drag line for skiers.

    >If the reason is compact size and light weight, there is a point at which general safety becomes a concern.

    I'd say as long as the strength rating is matched to your activity & other equipment, light weight is really only a problem in terms of durability. But if you let your rope saw against an edge, it will be damaged or cut even if it's an 11mm hawser, it just takes longer.

    You know, I thought this "lightweight is automatically dangerous" knee-jerk reaction ended after Go-lite came along & revolutionized the outdoor industry. I'd be willing to bet that as canyoneering matures as a a sport, an ultra-light contingent arises to tackle the next level of difficulty.

    It won't be me doing it though :)

    FF

    > Hi, > "Anyone have experience rapping accessory cords? I do understand that the > manufacturers do not recommend this...but anyone have some experience they > wouldn't mind sharing?"
    When I was ski patrolling we used accessory cord as our self-evac lines so > we could rap off stuck chairlifts. I did that a bunch of times on 7mm cord > with no problems. This was typical behavior at the time--maybe still is--& I > never heard of anyone having an accident. Some of the 'trollers would use > even thinner cord, but that seemed pretty dicey to me for some reason. I > think wear & tear would be a bigger issue than strength with using small > diameter cord in canyons. It's also pretty hard to climb back up it with a > prussik, although there are some unbelievably strong small diameter cords > for sailing that I've used as prussiks on smaller lines.
    I also currently use 5.5mm dyneema as my ski-mountaineering cord. It's > incredibly strong [5500 lbs breaking strength, I think], static, light & > compact. We even did a completely free-hanging 25m rap through a drippy > waterfall with skis on our backs last spring when we became cliffed out in > the Alps.
    FF >
  2. Good Post!!! Thanks.

    Adam Greco

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, Faerthen Felix <faerthen@...> wrote:
    Hi,
    Relax, Charly. Don't browbeat the poor guy, or me ;)
    I'm not advocating the use of accessory cord in canyons--the guy knows > it's not recommended, but he asked for anecdotes about using accessory > cord for rappelling. I offered my experience after no one else > responded. Doubtlessly, canyon cord is more durable & a better choice > [as several others responded before you], but short rapping on strong > accessory cord is not a death sentence if you take care & baby your > line, especially over edges.
    >For a patroller who mostly just carries the stuff and will only use it once to escape a chair lift it is probably ok.
    When did I say I only used it once? It's not disposable, for crying > out loud. I rapped the same 7mm cord off chairlifts or equivalent at > least half a dozen times a season for probably 9 years. I also carried > the same cord for very occasional use as a hand line in easy canyons > or on difficult mountain bike & ski tours. I think I even used it to > Z-drag a snowmobile out of a hole once & I know I used it as a > snowmobile drag line for skiers.
    >If the reason is compact size and light weight, there is a point at which general safety becomes a concern.
    I'd say as long as the strength rating is matched to your activity & > other equipment, light weight is really only a problem in terms of > durability. But if you let your rope saw against an edge, it will be > damaged or cut even if it's an 11mm hawser, it just takes longer.
    You know, I thought this "lightweight is automatically dangerous" > knee-jerk reaction ended after Go-lite came along & revolutionized the > outdoor industry. I'd be willing to bet that as canyoneering matures > as a a sport, an ultra-light contingent arises to tackle the next > level of difficulty.
    It won't be me doing it though :)
    FF
    > Hi,
    "Anyone have experience rapping accessory cords? I do understand that the
    manufacturers do not recommend this...but anyone have some experience they
    wouldn't mind sharing?"

    When I was ski patrolling we used accessory cord as our self-evac lines so
    we could rap off stuck chairlifts. I did that a bunch of times on 7mm cord
    with no problems. This was typical behavior at the time--maybe still is--& I
    never heard of anyone having an accident. Some of the 'trollers would use
    even thinner cord, but that seemed pretty dicey to me for some reason. I
    think wear & tear would be a bigger issue than strength with using small
    diameter cord in canyons. It's also pretty hard to climb back up it with a
    prussik, although there are some unbelievably strong small diameter cords
    for sailing that I've used as prussiks on smaller lines.

    I also currently use 5.5mm dyneema as my ski-mountaineering cord. It's
    incredibly strong [5500 lbs breaking strength, I think], static, light &
    compact. We even did a completely free-hanging 25m rap through a drippy
    waterfall with skis on our backs last spring when we became cliffed out in
    the Alps.

    FF
    >
  3. Tom Jones

    Tom Jones Guest

    Hidden in the back and forth here is the real problem with rapping on non-rope: EDGES!!! Rapping of a ski lift, one can set the cord in such as way that it does not pass over a sharp edge. In canyon use, one can use a light cord (ie, non-rope) when it does not cross an edge. However, in "ordinary" canyons, this is not usually the case, and some resistance to cutting is required for even an ultra-lite setup to be reasonably safe.

    Charly is a fairly relaxed guy, but he also has his eye out for bits of information that can get the less wary kilt. Thanks to both for your inputs.

    Tom

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, Faerthen Felix <faerthen@...> wrote:
    Hi,
    Relax, Charly. Don't browbeat the poor guy, or me ;) >

    ...

    I also currently use 5.5mm dyneema as my ski-mountaineering cord. It's
    incredibly strong [5500 lbs breaking strength, I think], static, light &
    compact. We even did a completely free-hanging 25m rap through a drippy
    waterfall with skis on our backs last spring when we became cliffed out in
    the Alps.

    FF
    > Again, just to be clear - pure strength is not the issue. You're fooling yourself if you think your 'strong' dyneema 5.5 cord is 'safe' when sawing over an edge. While dyneema is VERY strong, it is not very durable over edges. Dyneema slings wear out about twice as fast as nylon slings when used as quickdraws - for a reason. May I suggest, for future ski-mountaineering adventures, that two people carrying 25m x 8mm canyon pro is MUCH safer than one person carrying 1 x 50m x 5.5 powercord.

    Tom 'coreshot' Jones
  4. xeliff

    xeliff Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Tom Jones" <ratagonia@...> wrote:
    Hidden in the back and forth here is the real problem with rapping >on non-rope: EDGES!!! Rapping of a ski lift, one can set the cord >in such as way that it does not pass over a sharp edge. In canyon >use, one can use a light cord (ie, non-rope) when it does not cross >an edge. However, in "ordinary" canyons, this is not usually the >case, and some resistance to cutting is required for even an >ultra-lite setup to be reasonably safe.

    Geez, folks!

    Adam asked for anecdotes about rapping on accessory cord. I gave him some. I also mentioned that durability & edges would probably be the big problems in canyons. I never suggested that accessory cord is a good choice for canyons, just that you aren't necessarily going to die if you rap it carefully.

    >Again, just to be clear - pure strength is not the issue. You're >fooling yourself if you think your 'strong' dyneema 5.5 cord is >'safe' when sawing over an edge. While dyneema is VERY strong, it >is not very durable over edges. Dyneema slings wear out about twice >as fast as nylon slings when used as quickdraws - for a reason. May >I suggest, for future ski-mountaineering adventures, that two people >carrying 25m x 8mm canyon pro is MUCH safer than one person carrying >1 x 50m x 5.5 powercord.

    That's pretty snotty. I don't think I'm fooling myself at all with my glacier cord. Where did I say sawing ANY rope over an edge is kosher??? In fact I specifically said that's a really bad idea even for large rope.

    25m is too short. One of the big advantages of a smaller cord is that both my partner & I can each carry 50m x 5.5 even on long, difficult routes.

    If it makes you feel any better, I didn't invent the strategy: many ski guides in the Alps carry small diameter Dyneema for ski-mountaineering. Maybe you should also berate the UIAGM/IFMGA for approving this cord choice that you so aggressively disagree with.
  5. Tom Jones

    Tom Jones Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "xeliff" <faerthen@...> wrote:
    If it makes you feel any better, I didn't invent the strategy: many > ski guides in the Alps carry small diameter Dyneema for > ski-mountaineering. Maybe you should also berate the UIAGM/IFMGA for > approving this cord choice that you so aggressively disagree with. > The cord is designed, manufactured, sold and approved for high-strength, small-diameter static applications such as cordalettes and slinging chocks, not for rappelling.

    Wide-spread mis-application of a material or a technique does not mean it is "safe". Careful application by experts who appreciate, protect against and are willing to deal with the consequences of the risks involved - Fine by me. Tossed onto an Internet Forum read by a wide range of folks with a wide range of backgrounds, many non-technical? Open to criticism, such as you have received. Please consider the nature of the discussion, and that criticism of your suggestion is a healthy part of the give and take.

    Do what YOU wish, take the risks that YOU find acceptable. Viva la difference.

    Where should we send the flowers???? ( ;-> )

    Tom
  6. nat_smale

    nat_smale Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Tom Jones" <ratagonia@...> wrote:
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "xeliff" <faerthen@> wrote:

    If it makes you feel any better, I didn't invent the strategy: many
    ski guides in the Alps carry small diameter Dyneema for
    ski-mountaineering. Maybe you should also berate the UIAGM/IFMGA for
    approving this cord choice that you so aggressively disagree with.
    > The cord is designed, manufactured, sold and approved for high-strength, small-diameter static applications such as cordalettes and slinging chocks, not for rappelling.
    Wide-spread mis-application of a material or a technique does not mean it is "safe". Careful application by experts who appreciate, protect against and are willing to deal with the consequences of the risks involved - Fine by me. Tossed onto an Internet Forum read by a wide range of folks with a wide range of backgrounds, many non-technical? Open to criticism, such as you have received. Please consider the nature of the discussion, and that criticism of your suggestion is a healthy part of the give and take.
    Do what YOU wish, take the risks that YOU find acceptable. Viva la difference.
    Where should we send the flowers???? ( ;-> )
    Tom >

    i.e. NO PUBLIC DISCUSSION of new, innovative or non-standard ideas in canyoneering, unless UIAA approved, or OK'd by the canyoneering gods (or emperors). Sheesh, reminds me of the berating Kelsey got for recommending the occasional rappel of of hooks.

    I've used accessory cord for raps many times, usually 8ml occasionally 7ml (for shorter raps). I've even used my 100m 8ml accessory cord for Heaps, Englestead and many others. It's still in fine shape. Never had any problem. Of course, it goes without saying that you must be careful of wear, and check the cord carefully after each rap.

    I'm off to Hong Kong tomorrow morning for a year. Anyone know of any good canyoneering in the 'hood? I've googled climbing and bouldering and looks like a reasonable amount of decent routes there.

    Nat
  7. Tom Jones

    Tom Jones Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "nat_smale" <nat_smale@...> wrote: >


    i.e. NO PUBLIC DISCUSSION of new, innovative or non-standard ideas > in canyoneering, unless UIAA approved, or OK'd by the canyoneering > gods (or emperors). Sheesh, reminds me of the berating Kelsey got for > recommending the occasional rappel of of hooks.
    Nat >

    Quite the opposite, Nat, if'n you read the post.

    Putting forth new, innovative or non-standard ideas is likely to provoke criticism, counter-argument, warnings, hyperbole, over-the-top-ism, appeals to authority, references to Stone Crusade, et al. Viva free discussion.

    Tom
  8. xeliff

    xeliff Guest

    > Wide-spread mis-application of a material or a technique does not >mean it is "safe". Careful application by experts who appreciate, >protect against and are willing to deal with the consequences of the >risks involved - Fine by me. Tossed onto an Internet Forum read by a >wide range of folks with a wide range of backgrounds, many non- >technical? Open to criticism, such as you have received. Please >consider the nature of the discussion, and that criticism of your >suggestion is a healthy part of the give and take.
    Do what YOU wish, take the risks that YOU find acceptable. Viva la difference.
    Where should we send the flowers???? ( ;-> )
    Tom

    >Putting forth new, innovative or non-standard ideas is likely to >provoke criticism, counter-argument, warnings, hyperbole, over-the- >top-ism, appeals to authority, references to Stone Crusade, et al. >Viva free discussion.

    >Tom

    I have no problem at all with open discussion & criticism of my "suggestions", Tom, which were in fact no such thing, simply my experiences, as requested.

    What I do have a problem with is your snide personal attacks & assumption that I'm some sort of a bumpkin who can't be trusted to pick an appropriate glacier or rap cord for a specific application if my choice differs from yours.

    While I'll certainly defer to your canyon experience, it's not at all clear to me that you are qualified to pontificate to me about skiing, especially in this forum. You're being incredibly dogmatic & imperious about anything that differs from your narrow world-view, IMO. Pretty pathetic.

    I'd also add that virtually all "standard" applications started out as "non-standard", & I think acceptance by a large representative group like the UIAGM is pretty valuable & ought to provoke thought rather than derision.

    Thanks for the positive input on this discussion, Nat. I know I'm not the only one who has rapped on accessory cord, but I see now why no one else piped up to answer the original request.
  9. adkramoo

    adkramoo Guest

    It always saddens me when these misunderstandings occur. You and Nat see uses, cautiously based on your greater level of experience. Tom, I sense is concerned with the lower common denominator issue about espousing non manufacturer applications to lots of people of unknown skill levels. Ahhh well.

    I am out of my depth in such discussions, but a good friend of mine did have a rope, that turned out not to be rope, fail on him and was lucky not to get killed. Colors my world. Why not just have rope? Anyway, here is the thread, which makes interesting reading http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/46244



    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "xeliff" <faerthen@...> wrote: > I have no problem at all with open discussion & criticism of my "suggestions", Tom, which were in fact no such thing, simply my experiences, as requested.
    What I do have a problem with is your snide personal attacks & assumption that I'm some sort of a bumpkin who can't be trusted to pick an appropriate glacier or rap cord for a specific application if my choice differs from yours.
    While I'll certainly defer to your canyon experience, it's not at all clear to me that you are qualified to pontificate to me about skiing, especially in this forum. You're being incredibly dogmatic & imperious about anything that differs from your narrow world-view, IMO. Pretty pathetic.
    I'd also add that virtually all "standard" applications started out as "non-standard", & I think acceptance by a large representative group like the UIAGM is pretty valuable & ought to provoke thought rather than derision.
    Thanks for the positive input on this discussion, Nat. I know I'm not the only one who has rapped on accessory cord, but I see now why no one else piped up to answer the original request. >
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