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Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Scott Patterson, Mar 6, 2020.

  1. Scott Patterson

    Scott Patterson

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    Nevermind. Don't want the drama. Too much of that right now.
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2020
  2. Dan H

    Dan H FNG

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    Don’t let them get you down. As a newer canyoneering I often look to the forums for guidance. The people advocating k.i.s.s. always seem to be the wise old timers while the folks newer to the sport get overexcited by exotic new techniques and gear. Simple tricks I have picked up from folks like you and Tom and all the many others on here have saved me and my family much time and hassle as we have made our way through canyons. I just thought you should know that your efforts are appreciated. From my perspective the ACA is very much like scouting, a good way to build a base of leaders in the community but far from the best way to engage in the activity.
  3. Jason Linder

    Jason Linder

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    I wouldn't attribute the behavior of a few to the entire ACA. While your right, "moderation" on that group does tend to come from several prominent (or formerly prominent) ACA figures, I dont think it is fair to characterize the entire organization as zealots. ACA checklists and curriculum do emphasize the use of contingency rigging over DRT because many truly believe it is a best practice. I tend to agree. There are active communities of ACA in several states. I think what you experienced is more common in Utah groups. It is a part of the hegemonic culture. Some might even call it toxic.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegemonic_masculinity

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
  4. Scott Patterson

    Scott Patterson

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    I guess my "problem" with it is not whether they are right or wrong, but that anyone who has a different opinion (and an opinion that has merit and is for good reason) is censored or attacked. They try to make it sound like anyone who does is inexperienced, when the opposite is usually the case. Yet those same people censoring any thoughts of keeping things simple are the same persons who are getting in the accidents or contributing to them indirectly. Aldolfo himself, for example, says on his facebook page that he has had to rescue himself three times in recent years.:confused:

    My own opinion is that more complicated methods in canyoneering do have their place and have some advantages (especially in wet canyons), but keeping things as simple and safe as you can deserves merit. There have been way too many deaths in the canyons in recent years and a whole lot of them can be attributed to mistakes using over complicated (in my opinion at least) methods. A lot of those methods really aren't that complicated, but they are easier to make a mistake with.

    Still those advocating for those methods do deserve to be heard and should be free to express their opinions. The same goes for those who use toss and go on a fairly regular basis.

    There are a lot of advantages to a lot of methods that can be discussed.

    That said though, it isn't a good idea to know of just one method of rigging ropes. If end up cutting a rope in a canyon (which does happen) you had better know how to set up a block and rappel single line. If you are rappelling into swift water, single line is the way to go. Setting up blocks is useful in pothole canyons too because you can set the rope height right at water level.

    Still, toss and go offers a lot of advantages too and people should know how to do that as well. I can easily set up (and have set up) toss and go rappels in the dark because I can do it literally blindfolded. Frew people I know can do the same with other methods. There is a lot less chance of core shotting or cutting your rope too. For heavier canyoneers (I weigh 260), I find it easier to set the proper friction on. It is also a very simple rappel method, and is the least likely for people to make a mistake setting up (which still means that every anchor and set up should always be carefully checked).

    So, there are definitely a lot of different methods in canyoneering that should be learned. Don't make it overly complicated though.

    Get out there, have fun, and above all, be safe.
  5. Scott Patterson

    Scott Patterson

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    Yes; this is a fair point. Although the forum in question used to have ACA in the title, I was informed after making this post that the forum is question is not directly linked to the ACA, which is why I added the edit in the original post. Unfortunately, I don't remember how to edit the title.
    Bill and Sonny Lawrence like this.
  6. Ali Miller

    Ali Miller

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    Anecdotes like this make me really appreciate how civil, respectful, and generally pleasant the Canyon Collective community is. (Even Tom. ;))

    Thanks for your many (many!) valuable contributions to these boards, Scott!
  7. yetigonecrazy1

    yetigonecrazy1

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    Agreed, Ali! Its a lot better than the "if you don't like it, grow a pair or get out" boys club attitude at the....ahem.....other...... canyoning page.

    Also, Scott is one of the nicest, most knowledgeable people you'll ever meet in the canyoning world. How could you get angry with him? His posts are extremely informative, helpful, and non-controversial. Seems like a moderator on a power trip.....
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2020
  8. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

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    Scott, I'll toss-n-go with you anytime!

    Cheers!
    Bill, wisconnyjohnny, Steve D and 3 others like this.
  9. yetigonecrazy1

    yetigonecrazy1

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    Also, calling Scott "inexperienced"....ha ha ha ha. Like.....have ya seen any of Michael Kelsey's books? Good chance you've seen pictures of him in there. Or read about some of the many canyons that Scott helped pioneer or outright brought to the world by himself....
    Bill, wisconnyjohnny and John Styrnol like this.
  10. Sonny Lawrence

    Sonny Lawrence

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    Thanks, Scott for bringing up important concerns. Please keep in mind that the Coalition of American Canyoneers (CAC) attempts at all times to maintain a civil attitude toward the entire world-wide canyoneering community. This can certainly be a challenge at times. It helps that we have a large and varied board of directors to discuss concerns before the CAC goes public with its opinions. The CAC does not have a forum for discussion similar to CanyonCollective. But we do maintain Facebook pages for CAC and for the international canyon accident database (ICAD).

    Once again, thanks for bringing up important online communication concerns.
  11. Helo-ops

    Helo-ops

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    I'll through in my 2 cents. Being an aircraft technician there are different ways to tackle troubleshooting and perform maintenance. As long as it is done safely and the job gets done. I approach canyoneering the same way. What works and is it safe.
    I recently trained with some ACA guides and my experience was extremely positive. And guess what they used and taught throw and go.
    Here is a link to the items you must know to be an ACA guide. Guess what through and go is on there.
    https://www.canyoneering.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/ACA-Skills-Checklists-9-25-18.pdf
  12. wisconnyjohnny

    wisconnyjohnny

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    Hahaha touche. I toss n go a bit. That page on the Facebook is definitely very judgemental and harsh ect. Recently a few prominent highly respected canyon crushers have left that page because of all the idiocy.
    I will stay on it to watch newbs with their jesters and totem throttle riggings and get made fun of for using a toggle haha.
    Bill likes this.
  13. Bill

    Bill ... Staff Member

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    I dropped out of that group this week for more or less the same reasons.

    When you have ultra experienced people such as Scott discussing or disagreeing politely with an ACA merit badge holder (whos been doing Canyons for 2 years) and the non-affiliated ACA circle jerk begins to support their ideals its comical to say the least.
    :rofl:

    :twothumbs:
  14. Austin Farnworth

    Austin Farnworth

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    That group definitely not very forgiving, I've found the Utah Canyoneers page to be much more reasonable due to being run by Anthony and Jeremy Dye.
  15. Bshapiro

    Bshapiro

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    Hey Scott you seem to give the impression that you were deleted off of the Utah Canyoneering Explorers page. It is my understanding that you were deleted off of a private persons site not the Utah Canyoneering Explorers site. As you correctly state the Utah Canyoneering Explorers site is NOT affiliated with the ACA. The ACA has its own site. The Utah Canyoneering Explorer site welcomes all opinions and discussion as long as posts are done with "civility, mutual respect, and a healthy dose of tolerance from every member".

    I know a little about the ACA which does not oppose Toss and Go. The ACA has training to address plans in case a problem arises while someone is rappelling double strand. The ACA does believe if the group is a bunch of beginners that rigging releasable gives the beginner group an easy option to rescue a person if for example someone gets their hair seriously stuck on rappel. I am talking about a group that does not have a clue as to what to do with a rescue rope, how to convert a toss and go to a releasable anchor or how to do a contact rescue all of which the ACA and other organizations teach in advanced training.
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2020
    adolfo_isassi likes this.
  16. Ted

    Ted

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    In my personal experience, I've found Adolfo to be a Good Human Being.
    Bshapiro likes this.
  17. adolfo_isassi

    adolfo_isassi

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    I miss our first descent explorations Ted!
  18. Scott Patterson

    Scott Patterson

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    Hi Bruce. I was not deleted off the Utah Canyoneers Facebook page. To clarify, I was moderated on the Utah Canyoneering Explorers page, and via the moderator's facebook page (wearing his moderator badge) was told not to post on the Utah Canyoneering Explorers page anymore "keep it to yourself", and was told that any posts relating to DRT on the Utah Canyoneering Explorers page will be deleted. In addition, there were personal attacks from the moderator in question (I was called a cancer, inexperienced, etc.; basically an idiot). All this for making a polite post about some advantages of DRT. Hopefully that makes it clearer.

    I was not deleted off the page and have made posts since then. I hope this clears things up, lest there be any misunderstanding.

    I thoguht it was an important subject to bring up. Time to move on though. Consider what ever happened to be forgiven.

    Thank you. This is how it should be. I have been assured by the owner of the site that the above is the case. I have been told that the moderators have been talked to about the above, so hopefully this will be the case.

    Yes that was my mistake and I apologize for that. Since the old name of the page had the words ACA in it, I was mistaken on thinking that it was associated with the ACA. Unfortunately, I don't think I can change the thread title.
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2020
    Chris Harmon and yetigonecrazy1 like this.
  19. Dan Ransom

    Dan Ransom Staff Member

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    FYI, I've altered the thread title to remove the reference to the ACA.